Spiked Gautlets for monsters?

[Ambrus]

I'm curently playing a 6th level Gold Dragon (from Dragon Magazine 320). Last session we fought a demon with DR 10/Cold Iron. My uselessness in such a combat was made spectacularly clear. The best I could manage was to use my Combat Expertise feat to boost my AC and serve as a meat shield for the other PCs who had some cold iron weapons (I also managed to trip the demon on occassion).

Since it seems that these demons may be our party's main opposition, I've begun trying to find some way to improve my usefulness in combat. I was investigating the possibility that a dragon could use a set of gauntlets or spiked gauntlets made of different materials as an option. Gauntlets count as unarmed attacks, though I can't figure out if gautlets would allow the higher base damage of a dragon's natural claw attacks or not (though I suspect they would, for I'd expect a monk to benefit from his increased damage if he wore them). Since they're considered unarmed, they require neither proficiency to use them and wouldn't seem to interfere with the dragon's natural attack routine. Am I wrong in my assumptions?

Spiked gauntlets on the other hand are light weapons and, by the strict letter of the rules, would count as wielding two weapons in combat and require the use of the dragon's BAB and the various two-weapon and off hand penalties, with the dragon's other natural attacks counting as extra secondary attacks. It's also unclear whether they'd do the listed damage for spiked gauntlets or whether they'd allow for the dragon's base claw damage instead. Also, they'd require simple weapon proficiency. Normally dragons don't have such a proficiency, except for dragons who are "humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons"; (MM page 308). The word "capable" seems to indicate that such dragons have the proficiency all the time, regardless of whether they're currently in a humanoid form or in their dragon form.

What do you guys think? Could a monster have it's claw attacks count as cold iron/silver/adamantite by wearing specially crafted gauntlets? Anyone have a better idea? The alternative is to use my alternate shape ability to turn into a humanoid and fight with a cold iron heavy mace or something (a concept I find spectacularly unapealing).

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

Get Cold Iron dentures.

I don't know about gauntlets. A natural weapon isn't the same as an unarmed strike. If you were to wear gauntlets, you could retain, IMO, your normal attack routine, but you'd do gauntlet damage (1d3 for medium, 1d4 for large, etc) and not claw damage.

(btw, I don't think monks can use gauntlets, since they count as armor and thus would greatly penalize them)

I'm surprised such a subject wasn't covered in savage species. There is a magic weapon, though, in SS that might interest you: Beast Claws. They're spiked gauntlets, but if you already have a claw attack and you wear these, you get to do more damage.

AR

 

[Ambrus]

Get Cold Iron dentures.

Amazingly, there's a magic set of dentures (vorpal I think) in the Draconomicon, though they seem kind of silly to me.

A natural weapon isn't the same as an unarmed strike.

Well, in essence, they are:

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. –3.5 SRD

This bit seems to indicate that natural attacks are just a particular kind of unarmed attack; one that deals lethal damage instead of subdual damage and that doesn't provoke an AoO.

(btw, I don't think monks can use gauntlets, since they count as armor and thus would greatly penalize them)

Although gauntlets are often included in medium or heavy suits of armor, they don't by themselves grant an armor bonus, so they wouldn't interfere with a monk's special abilities, IMHO. That's why they're listed by themselves on the weapons chart.

If you were to wear gauntlets, you could retain, IMO, your normal attack routine, but you'd do gauntlet damage (1d3 for medium, 1d4 for large, etc) and not claw damage.

Although I hate to do so, I have to agree. Without any attacked spikes a gauntlet is just a closed fisted punch.

There is a magic weapon, though, in SS that might interest you: Beast Claws. They're spiked gauntlets, but if you already have a claw attack and you wear these, you get to do more damage.

I've seen it, they just happen to be out of my price range right now. They're actually what led me to wonder if I could benefit from a similar non-magical set of spiked-gauntlets. Now I'm just trying to figure out how to make it happen.

 

[Sejs]

Natural weapons are not unarmed strikes and vice versa - a creature with natural weapons can still make an unarmed strike just like a normal character, though they have little reason to do so. Natural weapons are like unarmed strikes the same way that daggers are like bastard swords. Two seperate things each handled in their own way, though they share some basic similarities.


And yeah - monks can use gauntlets just fine; gauntlets arn't armor in and of themselves. It's just that a gauntlet is a weapon, so a monk couldn't use a gauntlet for his monking.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

And yeah - monks can use gauntlets just fine; gauntlets arn't armor in and of themselves. It's just that a gauntlet is a weapon, so a monk couldn't use a gauntlet for his monking.

Don't want to sidetrack this thread, but how much damage would a 1st level medium monk do if he were wearing gauntlets? 1d3 or 1d6?

---

Natural Attack vs. Unarmed Attack vs. Unarmed Strike

An unarmed strike is what a monk does: a punch, a kick, a head-butt, a knee in the groin. It deals bludgeoning damage.

A natural attack is a subset of unarmed attacks, IMO. The type of damage dealt depends on the nature of the attack.

A gauntlet deals bludgeoning damage. Claws deal piercing/slashing damage. IMO they aren't compatible.

AR

 

[Sejs]

Don't want to sidetrack this thread, but how much damage would a 1st level medium monk do if he were wearing gauntlets? 1d3 or 1d6?

d3 if he's striking with the gauntlet, d6 if he's striking with his non-specific bodypart required monkly unarmed strike. Because unarmed strikes arn't restricted to just the hands, the monk's wearing of gauntlets doesn't prevent him from kung-fuing the bejebus out of things. He could use either weapon at his discretion.

 

[Deset Gled]

Natural Attack vs. Unarmed Attack vs. Unarmed Strike

An unarmed strike is what a monk does: a punch, a kick, a head-butt, a knee in the groin. It deals bludgeoning damage.

A natural attack is a subset of unarmed attacks, IMO. The type of damage dealt depends on the nature of the attack.

Wrong and wrong. (No offence )

A monk uses a monk's attack. They have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free, but some other effects as well. A natural attack is something completely different from an unarmed strike. For a complete list of reasons and arguements, search (Google) the site for threads on the Improved Natural Attack feat.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

Get an "Amulet of mighty fists" (DMG p.246 - nice item even if you wouldn't have the "material" problem ) and nicely ask your GM to also let it have either the "metalline" enhancement (from FR-Underdark) or let it turn your attacks to cold iron as an enhancement effect. Point out your problem, and the inherent difficulty for a dragon to overcome it without "surgical manicure" - while a humanoid PC will simply (hopefully) grab anotherweapon.

Unless your GM is very unhappy about you playing a dragon, he should see the light and either give you the chance to purchase such an item or find a similar solution

 

[Ambrus]

Get an "Amulet of mighty fists" (DMG p.246 - nice item even if you wouldn't have the "material" problem ) and nicely ask your GM to also let it have either the "metalline" enhancement (from FR-Underdark) or let it turn your attacks to cold iron as an enhancement effect.

Your idea is worthwhile, but such an amulet would cost a minimum of 54,000 gp (+1 enhancement, +2 equivalent metalline feature if you follow the standard rules for pricing weapons). My character is only 6th level; it's a bit out of my price range for the forseable future.

So my current options are:

• to polymorph and fight with a cold iron heavy mace
• fight with a single cold iron spiked gauntlet with my natural attacks as secondary weapons
• fight with two cold iron spiked gauntlets, suffer the severe two weapon fighting penalties and use my bite as a secondary natural attack.

This seems to be a fairly serious problem for creatures who mostly fight with natural weaponry. I don't get it; I've never played a druid before, so how do they usually make use of their animal companions in combat? Shouldn't there be some type of magical oil or elixir available for each special material that characters could then use to enhance their own or their animal companions' natural weapons (like silversheen for weapons)? It would certainly help me. :\