Spirited Charge and Charging Lance

[Rystil Arden]

...Except that a Charge (spirited or not) is a Full-Round Action, not a Move and a Standard. It doesn't matter if your mount spends a move action or not, you still have to spend a full-round action to get the benefits of a charge. Otherwise, it's just a move and an attack.

A mount charging cannot be a full-round action for the rider because otherwise you could never charge except on an intelligent mount--check this clause in the Ride skill:

As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle. If you fail the Ride check, you can do nothing else in that round. You do not need to roll for warhorses or warponies.

In other words--even on a warhorse, it still takes a move action to control your mount, you just automatically succeed.

Also, check this out:

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.

So as you can see--your mount charges, and you just "make an attack" that receives the bonus gained from the charge.

 

[kjenks]

The Living Greyhawk campaign doesn't usually allow those alternate class features.

PS. you need armour class even for ride by attack to avoid the attacks of opportunity you'll incur. Ride by attack doesn't do anything to negate AoOs. Mind you, dead things don't get AoOs...

SRD
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Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge). Your total movement for the round can’t exceed double your mounted speed. You and your mount do not provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent that you attack.
===

In my long experience with this tactic, even a tricked-out Shock Trooper/Smite Evil/Spirited Charge doesn't kill creatures of the correct Encounter Level in one hit. It usually takes two. But it almost never takes three.

And inflicting 150 HP on one hit almost always gets their undivided attention. That stings.

 

[IanB]

In other words--even on a warhorse, it still takes a move action to control your mount, you just automatically succeed.

That's sort of ambiguously worded; I think it can also be read as simply clarifying that you don't need to take the action with a war-trained mount. I could see designer intent going either way on this one, too.

Also, amusingly, from the epic uses of ride:

Unconscious Control
As a free action, the character can attempt to control a light horse, pony, or heavy horse while in combat. If the character fails, he or she controls the mount as a move-equivalent action. A character does not need to roll for warhorses or warponies.

Obviously anyone riding a non-trained mount should always attempt the epic use, especially if they have a low Ride skill; you automatically succeed on the move-equivalent use of the skill without a chance of losing control.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

On a slight tangent, but does anyone else feel the alternate paladin class feature from PHB2, Charging Smite, is grossly overpowered?

Even at 5th level, a basic mounted charge with a lance will do (normal damage + 15) x 2 with a nice hit bonus from both the charge and the smite. Add in spirited charge and you're already looking at 45 damage BEFORE adding in strength, magic enhancements, base weapon damage etc... Rhino's Rush (Paladin lvl 1 spell) from Spell Compendium takes this up to a x4 multiplier for 60+ damage. Heck, even if you somehow miss, Charging Smite states you don't even lose the smite attempt...

That's pretty disgusting.

In one of my games, we're gestalt characters and the healer/paladin has this variant, getting the mount from her healer class. It can be quite disgusting. She regularly sets and re-sets single hit damage records. I think right now, at level 14, her record is like 182, and that's without using charging smite! Actually, she's hardly used it at all yet. I think it's balanced by the fact that in most games, a paladin who takes it has no special mount, and thus can't combine it with spirited charge. I suppose he could go Mongol-style and take ten horses with him into every battle... As far as buying special mounts and training them, that's a significant expenditure of resources, so I wouldn't mind, though it's easy to say that not having had to deal with it. Of course, it can only be abused on evil creatures, and only a few times a day. A paladin is supposed to be awesome against evil, and the special mount really is a hefty benefit to lose, if you actually chose to use it. That reasoning aside, however, it is quite strong. The real question is: Does this ability make the paladin better against evil enemies than cleric and druid (widely considered most powerful classes in general)? If not, it's definitely fine. If so, as long as it isn't a huge margin of difference, it should still be ok. Thanks for mentioning Rhino's Rush, though. We can add that to her bag of tricks, now!

[sblock]For those who are interested (off-topic), the paladin/healer currently has these factors working in her favor for charges:

1. Spirited Charge + special mount
2. It's a final fantasy-based game, so her mount is a chocobo w/ the mount trait to carry riders the same size as it (medium), thus allowing it to go almost anywhere with her.
3. Rhino Hide. Sooooo Good!
4. Since she's "White Mage," DM houseruled Greater Mighty Whallop on her healer spell list, which she combines w/ Divine Spell Power to have a +4 size category hammer at level 14. (If not for the housrule, one of the two BMs would learn it, but this allows early access to higher size adjustments.)
5. Once again, as WM, DM allowed the BoED feat that gives wis to hit with simple weapons to be modified to give it to hit and damage, but only with the hammer.
6. Game's been in recess for a few weeks and it was a recent addition, but I believe she has a 3/day item to make a successful charge's multiplier increase by 1.[/sblock]

 

[Moon-Lancer]

That's sort of ambiguously worded; I think it can also be read as simply clarifying that you don't need to take the action with a war-trained mount. I could see designer intent going either way on this one, too.

Also, amusingly, from the epic uses of ride:



Obviously anyone riding a non-trained mount should always attempt the epic use, especially if they have a low Ride skill; you automatically succeed on the move-equivalent use of the skill without a chance of losing control.

So does this mean if you have a warhorse you can move in combat, full attack, and move away?

That would be a move action on the horse, full round attack for you and then a move action for the horse?

If not that can you move in and at least get a full attack?

 

[Moon-Lancer]

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.

So i guess regardless if a warhorse takes a move action or a free action to move, It would seem that you still only get one attack, but you have a extra move action to drop your lance and pull out a sword.

 

[Rystil Arden]

That's sort of ambiguously worded; I think it can also be read as simply clarifying that you don't need to take the action with a war-trained mount. I could see designer intent going either way on this one, too.

Also, amusingly, from the epic uses of ride:



Obviously anyone riding a non-trained mount should always attempt the epic use, especially if they have a low Ride skill; you automatically succeed on the move-equivalent use of the skill without a chance of losing control.

It isn't quite as absurd if we remember that Epic is 3.0, so it doesn't have to be consistent