(SPOILER CAUTION) A lot of questions about Buffy the Vampire Slayer

[Kahuna Burger]

I didn't call you a troll because you disagreed with me. I called you a troll for numerous and sundry other reasons.

heh, yeah, sometimes trolls just need to stand up and revel in it... only good thing about hong...

I liked Joyce too. I've jumped around a bit in what seasons and eps I've seen, so sadly I knew her death was coming, but still... The best thing about Joyce was that she was real. Very down to earth. One thing I wonder though - did she know spike was a vampire? Didn't catch enough of that time period to be sure, though they got along and spike mourned her death...

Kahuna burger

 

[takyris]

Hey, KB,

As I recall, the Joyce/Spike relationship was fairly humorous:

Spoilers of Seasons 2,4, and 5, I think.

Spoiler

Season Two: Buffy is attacked by Spike in the school hall on parent-teacher night, and Joyce whacks him with an axe and says something like, "Stay away from my daughter, you son of a b___", or words to that effect. She doesn't realize that he's a vampire. Thinks he's a gang member or something.

End of Season Two: As Spike works with Buffy to beat Angelous, she has to reveal to Mom that she's the Slayer. Joyce ends up having a weird conversation with Spike in the living room. It goes something like her saying, "Nice to meet you" in that great hesitant way she has, and Spike saying, "Oh, we've met. You hit me with an axe," and then doing an impersonation of her holding the axe and saying, "Stay away from my daughter, you son of a b___?" in this questioning voice, to see if she remembers. Very funny. At least, I THINK it was in that episode.

Oddly, I don't think that Spike and Joyce had that much crossover -- when he was becoming more involved with the family, she was going through her brain tumor. Later, she seemed pretty accepting of him, since he couldn't hurt people. And yeah, Spike mourned her with everyone else, saying that she treated him like a real person. Almost the same phrase he uses when describing the way Buffy treats him in the Season Five finale, ironically.

 

[DanMcS]

Actually, yes. There is a passing comment made about that in the 7th season episode, called "Conversations with Dead People" or something like that. It's called "Vampire Kung-Fu", or simply "Vampire-Fu"

No way. Buffy asked that guy why all vampires seemed to know martial arts, was it vampire-fu or something? His answer was that he took a lot of martial arts in college, before he got vamped. That's not really an answer.

 

[DanMcS]

They never did beat the First, did they?

The First had an opportunity because of Buffy's death and resuscitation, which created a split in the slayer line- there were two active slayers, which was against the rules of the universe or the magic that had created the slayer in the first place. That gave the first its opportunity. This was explained in passing in season 7.

They killed the First's champion and destroyed its army, collapsed the hellmouth it was using ("there's another one in Cleveland."), and ruined its plan to become corporeal. Plus, Willow's spell changed the rules of slayer-ness, so whatever condition had allowed it to strengthen and possibly become physically in the world no longer exists. They beat it.

 

[Vocenoctum]

The First had an opportunity because of Buffy's death and resuscitation, which created a split in the slayer line- there were two active slayers, which was against the rules of the universe or the magic that had created the slayer in the first place. That gave the first its opportunity. This was explained in passing in season 7.

AFAIK, it was never explained. BTW, what chance was there (the "chance" the First had)? was the demon army integral to the plan?
I still don't understand what the plan of the first was, how it had anything to do with Buffy's ressurection if anything, and why it is considered thwarted.

They killed the First's champion and destroyed its army, collapsed the hellmouth it was using ("there's another one in Cleveland."), and ruined its plan to become corporeal. Plus, Willow's spell changed the rules of slayer-ness, so whatever condition had allowed it to strengthen and possibly become physically in the world no longer exists. They beat it.

That's all theoretically correct, but there's none of that in the show. It's all just fan supposition to fill in the huge gaping plot holes. To say nothing of the convenient temple with the Deus Ex Axe/Scythe.

At least the Slayer Empowerment Act didn't seem to affect Angel any.

 

[Umbran]

Hm. Thread got long before I saw it. Where to begin...

On Vampire-fu: That one quote about taking martial arts before dying aside - vampires are a demon in a human body. Is it so odd to thing that in general these demons know how to fight?

Why didn't Buffy just kill off the original threatening vampires and go and live her life? Because she's not an idiot. She is in Sunnydale, and has to live there. Exactly what has she to gain from ignoring the problem?

Why doesn't Buffy demand conditions favorable to her? Probably because the people she was dealing with weren't in a position to grant such conditions. Giles works at the school, but doesn't ahve the administration under his thumb. He cannot grant good grades and remove homework.

Why didn't the authorities do something? Well, the Mayor was a big part of that, as we find out later.

Why is the Watcher's Council a bunch of idiots? Because, at any given time, there's only one Slayer. The way they've set it up, that means that at any given time, there's not many of them that have real field training. You need many Watchers to cover all the potentials, but most of them live boring lives watching a teenager grow up.

Why don't Buffy and Giles sit down and talk? Dude, you're talking about a world in which marriages fall apart due to lack of communication. Actually talking about things is not a human strong suit...

Why don't vampires use weapons? Because they are weapons themselves. That goes both for vampire psychology, and for dramatic necessity. More primitive battle is generally more appealing to viewers. And really, you're talking about a demon. It may not be dumb, but it automatically thinks that it is physically superior to any human. It is only rarely when they would need weapons.

Why don't the vampires go after Buffy's family and friends? Because that's not terribly constructive. What's more effective - killing the Slayer, or giving her a real personal reason to put a stake in your heart?

About evicting Buffy in the final season -

Edena, you talk about Buffy, Faith, and Spike as weapons. But that treats them as mechanisms, and they aren't merely mechanisms. They are people, and so the situation was far more complicated.

Or, to follow your analogy - the weapon is useless if the arm and mind that wield it are tired or foolish. Eviction was not irrational. It was, in fact, exactly what Buffy needed at the time. SHe was near teh breaking point, and needed perspective and time to think forced upon her, as she would not take it willingly.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hey there Lichtenhart. Nice to see you again. I have no IR to offer, sadly, but I'm still around!

Willow did indeed alter the rules of the Slayer, enabling all the Potentials to be Slayers simultaneously.
Just how many Potentials Turned Slayers survived the battle at the end of Season 7? (not including those not there at the battle)

And why didn't Willow restore Xander's lost eye? She obviously had truly enormous power.
Saying she was too afraid of the magic, due to her previous addiction and disaster, won't cut it (to quote Willow.) At least, it won't cut it for me. It doesn't sound plausible.
She may have feared her addiction and capabilities, but Willow cherished Xander above all other things in life, except Tara alone.

 

[Heretic Apostate]

Regarding the First becoming corporeal: The First said (and you can believe it or not) that when its army of vampires was released, they would start siring or killing humans. When there were as many vampires as humans, it would become corporeal. According to the First, in one of its taunts at Buffy.

And I still want to know why they had to wait until the Hellmouth was open before releasing the Slayer-hood on the potentials...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I wonder, though.
The First, with it's partial omniscience, had a good chance of knowing about Buffy's eviction (it did not know, apparently, but the group did not know that.)
Had the First known, it could have sent the Dark Cleric (the former preacher it favored) with the Bringers against Faith and the group. The result would have been annihilation.
It is true the First could have sent the Dark Cleric against Buffy and Faith, but the two of them together (and with Spike also) had a better chance than with Faith alone.
As bad as Buffy's personal, psychological condition was, and as dysfunctional as she had become, I still have to wonder if a better way wasn't possible.

You are right, of course, that Buffy, Faith, and Spike were not weapons per se. They were people (or, vampires.) So yes, it is more complicated - and Buffy was always more complicated than first appearances would indicate. It was filled with subtlety and analogies to Real Life that made it quite special, I thought.

 

[Dalin the Monk]

If your interested in philosophical Buffy talk...

http://www.atpobtvs.com/