SPOILER WARNING: A thread about the Harry Potter books

[Edena_of_Neith]

We do indeed, and apparently anything could happen ...
When is the book being released? Anyone?

Let me try to address the Harry versus Hermione issue from a Dragonlance perspective.
Remember the (dreadful) Test of the Towers of High Sorcery?
The Test tested personal dedication to wizardry, understanding of one's own self, judgement (no kender EVER passed the Test), intellect and magical aptitude, general wisdom, and specific understandings concerning magic (such as, how to use it to best effect in combat.)
Passing the Test allowed a character to proceed past 3rd level. Failure meant death (no exception ever made.) Those who passed were often permanently injured, physical and/or psychologically. Temporary severe injury was certain.
Some notables who did pass the Test included Raistlin, Par-Salian, Justarius, Ladonna, Dalamar, Palin, and Fistandantilus.

Let us say that the Harry Potter characters meet all the requisites for taking the Test, ignoring the age requirement, and assuming they are the equivalent of 3rd level.
Who is most likely, and who is least likely, amongst them, to pass or fail this test, in your opinion? (obviously, you need to understand Dragonlance and the Test to answer the question here ... I know many of you on ENWorld know about Dragonlance!)

Also, for the purpose of this question, assume each of the Harry Potter characters has finished their 5th year at Hogwart's, and taken their OWL. Thus, they are of relatively equal ages, for the purposes of this question (16 years of age, typically.) Use their thinking and understandings at the end of their 5th year at Hogwart's, for the purpose of determining their qualifications for the Test.

Here is my take on the question:

Hermione Granger (likely to pass the Test)
Harry Potter (likely to pass the Test)
Draco Malfoy (likely to pass)
Ginny Weasley (likely to pass)
Ron Weasley (somewhat likely to pass)
Percy Weasley (likely to fail)
Dean Thomas (likely to fail)
Katie Bell (likely to fail)
Fleur De'Cleur (very likely to fail)
Lucy Lovegood (very likely to fail)
Neville Longbottom (very likely to fail)
Pansy Parkinson (extremely likely to fail)
Lavender Brown (extremely likely to fail)
Crabbe (almost certain to fail)
Goyle (almost certain to fail)
George Weasley (almost certain to fail)
Fred Weasley (almost certain to fail)

 

[billd91]

We do indeed, and apparently anything could happen ...
When is the book being released? Anyone?

Let me try to address the Harry versus Hermione issue from a Dragonlance perspective.
Remember the (dreadful) Test of the Towers of High Sorcery?
The Test tested personal dedication to wizardry, understanding of one's own self, judgement (no kender EVER passed the Test), intellect and magical aptitude, general wisdom, and specific understandings concerning magic (such as, how to use it to best effect in combat.)


<snip>
Here is my take on the question:

Hermione Granger (likely to pass the Test)
Harry Potter (likely to pass the Test)
Draco Malfoy (likely to pass)
Ginny Weasley (likely to pass)
Ron Weasley (somewhat likely to pass)
Percy Weasley (likely to fail)
Dean Thomas (likely to fail)
Katie Bell (likely to fail)
Fleur De'Cleur (very likely to fail)
Lucy Lovegood (very likely to fail)
Neville Longbottom (very likely to fail)
Pansy Parkinson (extremely likely to fail)
Mrs. Lavender (extremely likely to fail)
Crabbe (almost certain to fail)
Goyle (almost certain to fail)
George Weasley (almost certain to fail)
Fred Weasley (almost certain to fail)

I think you're way off on some of these. Fred and George, assuming they'd even bother to take the test, would pass it with flying colors. No characters in the stories so far have been as comfortable with themselves and driven to accomplish the things they want to accomplish than Fred and George. Truth to tell, they'd probably find some loophole around parts of it and fool the test itself.
Neville Longbottom gets stronger and more confident as the stories move along. He'll surprise you in book 7, I'd bet on it.
Percy Weasley would probably also pass. He may have certain social problems, but he's ambitious and talented enough to make head boy. He's also clearly as brave as his father and elder brothers when it comes to personal risk. He'd pass.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Could you rank them, then? And add in the characters I missed? (I know I missed quite a few, too.)

 

[WayneLigon]

As for letting House Slytherin still exist, well, the old proverbs are best. Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.

Being in House Slytherin doesn't mean you're a Dark wizard. A number apparently come from that House, but Slytherin seems to be more about power and self-advancement than evil.

Even then, though, being a Dark wizard apparently doesn't come with an automatic black ball or jail sentence. They know where an entire shopping district for Dark wizards exists. The Slavic school that attends the Tri-Wizard Tournament has Dark teachers and such; it's likely that Viktor himself will probably be a Dark wizard.

 

[billd91]

Could you rank them, then? And add in the characters I missed? (I know I missed quite a few, too.)

I'm just not sure I see much of a point to guessing at most characters. Lavender Brown, Dean Thomas, Katie Bell, and Pansy Parkinson are characters we actually know very little about with respect to their magical skill. They're in the background with a few appearances on stage at best.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm making best guesses, based on how they've reacted to events, and on their achievements at Hogwart's.

 

[Merlion]

I'm not really sure why the issue of the danger of sending kids to Hogwarts even comes up, given the physical, emotional and pyschological danger and damage people send their children into in regular, real life school every day. I have yet to meet someone who has come through compulsory "education" without considerable scarring.


As far as the Harry/Hermione thing they pretty much state that Hermione is better than Harry at everything save Flying and Defense Against the Dark Arts. The world of Harry Potter seems to have very little concept of "raw power" in magic, like we find in most fantasy. We know that Dumbledore and Voldemort are considered vastly more powerful than most other Wizards, but beyond that its not gone into much. Since we rarely see magical combat, and since the magic is almost always based on predefined spells rather than personal direct usages of magic, its hard to define.


I'm not sure I entirely believe in the "Great Author" concept. How good a story is is almost entirely a matter of opinion, and even technique is subjective. I enjoy her writting, and I think she is a great "plotter" a skill I greatly lack as a writer. Even though I have never read Mystery fiction, she seems to me more like a Mystery writer, with her intricate plots, and all the twists, and the fact that especially in the early books, there is usualy a "whodunit" mystery of some kind, or more than one.
I think J.K. Rowling's work has had a huge impact on literature and culture, and will long be remembered. I think the impact is mostly positive.
For those of us who are hardcore fantasy fans, there are some flaws. Mostly coming, I think, from the fact that she doesnt really seem to be a "fantasy author." She has never really defined the nature or workings of magic in her world, explained the difference or split-off point between Muggles and Wizards, or really developed a mythology for the magical aspects of her world. However, she has made magic powerful, and its created a few inconsistencies, like why the Weasleys despite being poor, would have issues with broken down or tattered possessions, since its obviously easy to repair and alter things with magic.
I personally dislike the fact that she pulls a Star Wars RPG type thing and catagorizes almost any spell that does real harm or could kill someone as "Dark" or "Forbidden" magic. I dont personally consider violence or even killing as inherently evil things...some times one must do such things in defense of yourself or another. It also seems a little odd...I wonder if killing another person, regardless of circumstances or how you do it, automatically lands you in Azkaban, since using Avada Kadvra against another person does so, again regardless of circumstances.
I also dislike that most magical creatures have been "dumbed down" into basically animals. But those are all just my tastes...I think Rowling is a very talented writer.

I definitely agree with the statement that although there is a LOT of magic in the books, they arent about magic. Honestly the magic is mostly plot devices and window dressing...some times to much so for my taste.

Harry Potter emphasizes the profound unfairness of the world, in allegory.

I'm not sure it specifically tries to do that, but it may nevertheless.

What level would Harry Potter be, in his various years, in D&D? Ron? Hermione? McGonagal? Snape? Dumbledore? Voldemort? What manner of translation would be needed to make Hogwart's into a 3rd edition setting, or vice versa?

I think its mostly pointless to even speculate, because the two are so totally different. Rowling has thrown a lot of magical stuff in with seemingly little regard for its implications...DND on the other hand careful weighs things before including them (unless its Divine stuff of course.)

In Harry Potter, it seems wizards rule the world. Do they? Would they do so in D&D, if they could so freely cast spells instead of using the Vancian system? Or perhaps their need for focuses (wands) is a crippling drawback? If they are so powerful, what would one do with fighters, rogues, and clerics to compensate them in a Harry Potter setting?

In any world featuring mage-types that wield magic capable of doing nearly anything, and in which there are large numbers of said mage-types, they almost certainly could rule said world if they wished, unless there is a larger limitation at play. In Earthsea for instance, Wizards are powerful enough to rule the world, but their knowledge of the Pattern and Balance prevents them from doing so.

Its hard to say in Harry Potter, mostly again because of Rowling's odd aproach to magic. Huge pocket-dimension tents are commonplace, yet there is almost no offensive magic..



Just some of my thoughts..

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Would anyone like to rank them according to their survival chances against the Dragonlance Test?
Anyone?

I was a DL fan (still am) and knew a lot of DL fans. We all knew about the dreaded Test, and I just thought it might be an appropriate way to sort these characters (no, it is not the definite measure of who is the 'best wizard' - Par-Salian and Fistandantilus alike would throw conniption fits if they heard me say that - but it does have it's merits.)

 

[shilsen]

Would anyone like to rank them according to their survival chances against the Dragonlance Test?
Anyone?

[Spock]There is not enough data to formulate a viable conclusion, Captain.[/Spock]

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

Who is stronger in magic, Harry or Hermione? Hard to say, Harry after all has 'main character' powers that allow him to survive certain death. It would cut the series short if he didn't.

There were two times where their relative levels of magic could have been compared directly: the third year DADA final and their O.W.L.S. As Hermione says herself in OotP:

"You beat me in our third year - the only year we both sat the test and had a teacher who actually knew the subject."

However... the part of the test Hermione failed and Harry passed was facing off against a boggart. Harry had been facing boggarts all year thanks to Professor Lupin: Hermione had never faced one. Not exactly a fair measure of skill. As shown when Harry faced his first boggart, he fainted.

And consider their O.W.L.S: Hermione Outstanding in everything, except DADA, where she took Exceeds Expectations. Harry's only Outstanding was DADA, which is to be expected from someone who had gone through the stuff he's done over the years.

It should also be noted that Hermione was designing N.E.W.T. level spells of her own design (coin messaging and SNEAK hexes) long before anybody else. That has to take skill and power.

While others in the DA were having trouble summoning their Patronus, Hermione had her silver otter sailing around.

And in Goblet of Fire (pg 529), Hermione was able to blast through Harry's Shield Charm.

I think it comes down to the fact that Harry is a better combat mage. He's faster on the reaction, quicker on the uptake and generally more sure of himself when faced with immediate life-threatening situations. He reacts a split-second faster and generally makes the right choice when under pressure.

Hermione is (unquestionably) smarter and knows more lore and spells than Harry ever will. From the examples I'd say she holds the edge in power and ability as well, she's just a bit slower on the move when the time comes for action, which gives Harry the edge in DADA stuff.

She's also not the main character, so she losses in the 'plot happens' category.