SPOILER WARNING: A thread about the Harry Potter books

[billd91]

There were two times where their relative levels of magic could have been compared directly: the third year DADA final and their O.W.L.S. As Hermione says herself in OotP:

"You beat me in our third year - the only year we both sat the test and had a teacher who actually knew the subject."

However... the part of the test Hermione failed and Harry passed was facing off against a boggart. Harry had been facing boggarts all year thanks to Professor Lupin: Hermione had never faced one. Not exactly a fair measure of skill. As shown when Harry faced his first boggart, he fainted.

I was actually just reading this. It's my son's bed time story. You're mis-remembering parts of this but it's not really that important. We don't know, ultimately, how their grades are formulated over the course of the year. Though I think we can assume that the boggart episode in class, in which neither Harry nor Hermione get to face it, is only one of many practical lesson classes that add to their grades. I would presume that throughout the course of the year, Harry manages to pull ahead of Hermione. But then, with all the extra tutoring he gets, that's to be expected.
Harry excels through 2 things: being quick and decisive on his feet (and wand) and in working hard to master something when he's well motivated to do it.

 

[Loincloth of Armour]

I was actually just reading this. It's my son's bed time story. You're mis-remembering parts of this but it's not really that important.

Actually I've got both books open before me. I'm talking about the end of year exam, not the boggart the other members of the class faced early in the year.

Prisoner of Azkaban page 234:

'Excellent, Harry,' Lupin muttered, as Harry climbed out of the trunk [with a boggart] grinning. 'Full marks.'

and a few lines lower

Hermione did everything perfectly until she reached the trunk with the boggart in it.

The only difference between them there was their response to the boggart. Professor Lupin had been helping Harry face boggarts all year to help him deal with Dementors. As far as we know, it was Hermione's first time facing off against one. Harry didn't do any better his first few times against a boggart.

Harry excels through 2 things: being quick and decisive on his feet (and wand) and in working hard to master something when he's well motivated to do it.

We mostly agree. But even when motivated ("I'm going to be facing a dragon!") he still has a heck of a time learning the summoning charm in Goblet of Fire. Other than broom flying (and divination) Hermione pretty much cleans up in learning and using spells.

 

[billd91]

Actually I've got both books open before me. I'm talking about the end of year exam, not the boggart the other members of the class faced early in the year.

Fair enough. I'm not up to that point again in the book and it has been a few years since I had last read it.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I think that ...

[sblock]

Voldemort has already won, and won completely, as of the end of Book Six.

Harry Potter has said he would not return to Hogwarts if it reopened. Consider that, folks.
At the end of Book One, he practically considers it his home (in the film, he says this, but in the book it's pretty much implied.) Now ... he wouldn't return to it, if it reopened? He has gone from considering it home, to hating it to the point of never returning, even to finish his education?
Voldemort did this. Voldemort sent his people in to bring grief to Harry Potter. And Voldemort is indirectly responsible for the horrors visited on Harry by many other people. Most of Harry's bad Hogwart's experiences stem from Voldemort ... and they have added up and now Harry hates the school even more, it would appear, than he hates the Dursleys.

And now, consider this ...

Hogwart's is a heavily fortified fortress. If you take the combined strength of Voldemort's enemies and the student body (the majority of whom oppose Voldemort) and their parents (if sheltered at Hogwarts) and those fey creatures who stand with Hogwarts, you have a strong army in a strong citadel.
Which is desperately needed because Voldemort is back in his full might, and he has his army fully readied and on the offensive now. And Voldemort is stronger than any opposing wizard in the world, in a one on one match. Dumbledore, his only equal, is dead and gone.
Harry Potter is smart enough to know this. Indeed, he and his friends remark on it before McGonagall foolishly closes the school (but then, McGonagall was never very smart ... )

Panicked parents trying to defend their children, alone in their poorly defended and/or undefended and/or undefendable houses, is a real bad idea right now. As Harry and his friends noted.
The Ministry of Magic? They are total incompetents, and they lost to Voldemort long ago. They cannot protect anyone.

So why would Harry Potter abandon Hogwarts, when he knows Hogwarts is the best defense his peers (including the Weasleys, and Hermione, and his other friends) have?
Or does Harry simply not care enough about his peers anymore?
Perhaps Harry is so damaged from the way he has been treated, at Hogwarts (through Voldemort), at Hogwart's (due to the way things are done at Hogwarts), by the Ministry of Magic, and by others ... they he simply does not care anymore?

I think this is the case. The new Harry Potter: the Harry Potter who no longer cares, who no longer feels, who is hard and cynical and uncaring.
How could Voldemort *possibly* have won a greater victory, than to have accomplished this? I could not imagine a greater victory.
They could go and kill Voldemort completely (all those Horcruxes, everything) and all his followers ... but Voldemort has still won. He has won for all eternity, if Harry Potter has become the thing he appears to have become.

I must confess that this is extremely disheartening. But there it is. Voldemort has won. Voldemort is persevering, if nothing else ... and patience and perseverence pays off.
He has destroyed Harry Potter. Everything else he does, from this point forth, is chickenfeed in comparison.

[/sblock]

 

[Storm Raven]

I think that ...

[sblock]

Voldemort has already won, and won completely, as of the end of Book Six.

Harry Potter has said he would not return to Hogwarts if it reopened. Consider that, folks.
At the end of Book One, he practically considers it his home (in the film, he says this, but in the book it's pretty much implied.) Now ... he wouldn't return to it, if it reopened? He has gone from considering it home, to hating it to the point of never returning, even to finish his education?
Voldemort did this. Voldemort sent his people in to bring grief to Harry Potter. And Voldemort is indirectly responsible for the horrors visited on Harry by many other people. Most of Harry's bad Hogwart's experiences stem from Voldemort ... and they have added up and now Harry hates the school even more, it would appear, than he hates the Dursleys.

And now, consider this ...

Hogwart's is a heavily fortified fortress. If you take the combined strength of Voldemort's enemies and the student body (the majority of whom oppose Voldemort) and their parents (if sheltered at Hogwarts) and those fey creatures who stand with Hogwarts, you have a strong army in a strong citadel.
Which is desperately needed because Voldemort is back in his full might, and he has his army fully readied and on the offensive now. And Voldemort is stronger than any opposing wizard in the world, in a one on one match. Dumbledore, his only equal, is dead and gone.
Harry Potter is smart enough to know this. Indeed, he and his friends remark on it before McGonagall foolishly closes the school (but then, McGonagall was never very smart ... )

Panicked parents trying to defend their children, alone in their poorly defended and/or undefended and/or undefendable houses, is a real bad idea right now. As Harry and his friends noted.
The Ministry of Magic? They are total incompetents, and they lost to Voldemort long ago. They cannot protect anyone.

So why would Harry Potter abandon Hogwarts, when he knows Hogwarts is the best defense his peers (including the Weasleys, and Hermione, and his other friends) have?
Or does Harry simply not care enough about his peers anymore?
Perhaps Harry is so damaged from the way he has been treated, at Hogwarts (through Voldemort), at Hogwart's (due to the way things are done at Hogwarts), by the Ministry of Magic, and by others ... they he simply does not care anymore?

I think this is the case. The new Harry Potter: the Harry Potter who no longer cares, who no longer feels, who is hard and cynical and uncaring.
How could Voldemort *possibly* have won a greater victory, than to have accomplished this? I could not imagine a greater victory.
They could go and kill Voldemort completely (all those Horcruxes, everything) and all his followers ... but Voldemort has still won. He has won for all eternity, if Harry Potter has become the thing he appears to have become.

I must confess that this is extremely disheartening. But there it is. Voldemort has won. Voldemort is persevering, if nothing else ... and patience and perseverence pays off.
He has destroyed Harry Potter. Everything else he does, from this point forth, is chickenfeed in comparison.[/sblock]

I think you are totally wrong.

In a meta sense, you are wrong because that would make for a really lousy story. Especially so for a story that is aimed at children.

In a thematic sense, you are wrong because [sblock]it presupposes that Harry's actions amount to such a catipulation, rather than an attempt to change from playing defense (which the "good guys" have been doing up until now), to playing offense in an attempt to hunt down and eliminate the threat at the source. It also assumes that Harry won't go back to Hogworts, which I think is a big assumption, despite his stated intentions not to.[/sblock]

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

If I am right, then:

[sblock]

I think the Harry Potter books should be in the same category as Dicken's famous Oliver Twist stories.
To place the Harry Potter books in the same category as, say, the Oz books is not appropriate. The level of angst, pain, and outright horror in Harry Potter is too great to allow for that.
This is ironic, since Book One was in the category of the Oz books, and one might have thought the whole series would have continued in that vein. However, each book is darker than the last one, the series becomes rapidly darker than even Pinnochio is (the book), until it leaves the Oz category and joins the Oliver Twist realm.
I am guessing that many would approve of this, obviously.

As I have said before, and say again, it looks like the bad side wins. It seems the bad side has already won. No regular magic needed to do it. Just a heart corrupted by too much horror and pain. Or as Dumbledore would have said, the destruction of the greatest magic of all.
The jury is out until Book Seven arrives. But there is this lurch in my stomach that says Rowling will fulfill my expectations. I hope she doesn't, but I'm guessing she will.

(sighs)

Edena_of_Neith

[/sblock]

 

[Storm Raven]

If I am right, then:

[sblock]

I think the Harry Potter books should be in the same category as Dicken's famous Oliver Twist stories.
To place the Harry Potter books in the same category as, say, the Oz books is not appropriate. The level of angst, pain, and outright horror in Harry Potter is too great to allow for that.
This is ironic, since Book One was in the category of the Oz books, and one might have thought the whole series would have continued in that vein. However, each book is darker than the last one, the series becomes rapidly darker than even Pinnochio is (the book), until it leaves the Oz category and joins the Oliver Twist realm.
I am guessing that many would approve of this, obviously.

As I have said before, and say again, it looks like the bad side wins. It seems the bad side has already won. No regular magic needed to do it. Just a heart corrupted by too much horror and pain. Or as Dumbledore would have said, the destruction of the greatest magic of all.
The jury is out until Book Seven arrives. But there is this lurch in my stomach that says Rowling will fulfill my expectations. I hope she doesn't, but I'm guessing she will.

(sighs)[/sblock]

I still think you are completely off-base here.

[sblock]First off, the Oz books are not, and really have never been, the right comparison. Roald Dahl's books are more in line with the Harry Potter universe. BUt that is neither here nor there.

Basically, having the books end with Voldemort winning, and having won already by the end of Book Six, would make for a really lousy story. It would kill the series, destroy books sales for Book Seven, and probably eliminate any significant market for the books in the future. Good children's book series last forever, as new generations of children are given them by their parents to read. Susan Cooper wrote The Dark Is Rising, and the rest of books in her series in the sixties, and they are still in print. Madeline L'Engle's books have had similar durability. Laura Ingalls Wilder's books have lasted even longer.

But writing a Book Seven in a way that make Voldemort "already have won" by the end of Book Six (or having Voldemort win at all) would kill this. Most readers would react badly to such an outcome. Word of mouth would destroy the books current sales, and then kids who have read the series as they came out wouldn't bother to hand their kids copies in fifteen years. Rowling would be shooting herself in the foot.

Plus, I think you are reading way too much into Harry's desire not to return to Hogworts in the upcoming year. First off, you assume that he won't, which I think is a dubious assumption. Each year events have conspired to get Harry to Hogworts on schedule and more or less in one piece. The bulk of the characters built up over six books are there, and avoiding the location will simply toss those characters aside for no real good reason. I think that Harry will decide to be back, probably after, say, Dumbeldore's painting, McGonegal, and Hagrid point out that trying to fight Voldemort on his own without completeing his education probably won't work.

Second, I think you take Harry's proactive decision ("I'm going to go out and get Voldemort") far too negatively. Deciding to hunt down and confront your enemy is not necessarily despair, it could very well be determination and courage. Look at it this way: every time Harry has confronted Voldemort (or his minions) up until now, it has been at a time and place of their choosing, not his. And yet he has survived every time, and even dealt them setbacks. Perhaps if he chooses the time and place for the fight, things will go differently.[/sblock]

 

[Umbran]

If I am right, then:

[sblock]
As I have said before, and say again, it looks like the bad side wins. It seems the bad side has already won. No regular magic needed to do it. Just a heart corrupted by too much horror and pain. Or as Dumbledore would have said, the destruction of the greatest magic of all.
[/sblock]

Well... [sblock]
...of course it looks like the bad side wins - that's simple dramatic structure. It is always darkest just before the dawn, and all that. You have the most dramatic possibilities if the good guys are against the ropes, struggling hard, just before the end. If the good guys were in a decent position goign into the last book, it doesn't seem all that spectacular if they do win.

Plus, given some facts, we know that Hogwarts is not where Harry has to be if he's going to win. Assume, for the moment, that leaving Voldemort alive is not an option - it only delays the inevitable. So, Voldemort must be slain. That means there's a stack of horcruxes (horcruxen?) that need to be found and destroyed. Unless Voldemort is extremely stupid, they won't all be found at Hogwarts. Hence, Harry has to be elsewhere to destroy them.

Now, Voldemort may well still have some pyhrric victory, because of the outside chance that Harry himself is a horcrux...[/sblock]

And btw, it is far easier to carry on conversation if you label the thread as containing spoilers, and do away with all the spoiler blocks. Note how much of the conversation now needs to be blocked off - it is nigh impossible to talk about the books in this manner without revealing things from the books - so spoilers are inevitable.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

Like Umbran said, Boox Six is "the darkness just before the dawn."

As a comparison, look at Empire Strikes Back. Unless Luke & Co. have a really wonky description of victory, they got their butts kicked. But in the next movie they manage to turn it around and topple the Empire.

As for Harry's comments at the end of Boox 6, we're seeing him immediately after what has to be one of the most traumatic moments of his life, and he's still reeling from it. Once he's had a chance to "cool his jets," Harry's outlook might change drastically. He'd be a complete idiot to think he could accomplish his mission without help. Just becuase he has to fight the final fight on his own doesn't mean he can't accept a little help along the way, as has been proven many times by Ron, Hermoine, and many others throughout the series, even though each book often ends with Harry facing the main threat on his own (save Book 5, where he was really in over his head in that case).

He probably will go back to Hogwarts (which I imagine will re-open), using it as a sort of base of operations while trying to complete the rest of his mission.

And we get spoilers added to the title of this thread?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Spoiler Warning is up. If I create another thread (if this thread reaches 500 posts and overloads) I will put Spoiler Warnings up for subsequent threads.


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Ok ...

I think Rowlings made a mistake here.
The Empire Strikes Back is a good analogy, but it would have accounted for books 3, 4, and 5 in the Harry Potter series (the middle books.) We are at the end of Book 6.
Where is there enough time for Harry to find Voldemort's four remaining Horcruxes in Book Seven? Return of the Jedi needs Books 5, 6, and 7, as it were, not just book 7 (even if you leave out those ewoks ...)

What we need are Books 7, 8, and 9. Maybe 10. Voldemort carefully concealed his Horcruxes. Finding them and taking them out should take a while.

On another front, Harry is supposed to take Voldemort out. Fair enough.
But is he going to just go off and do this alone? He should realize from his own background that teamsmenship is the only way to win. He needs Hermione and Ron. He needs Neville and Lucy. He needs Ginny. He needs George and Fred. He needs McDonagall, Sprout, Flickwick, Hootch (sp?), and Lupin. And yes, he needs Snape (unfortunately, seems like Voldemort has pretty much convinced everyone on that one.)

Voldemort, if he shows up alone to fight Harry Potter, would be awfully foolish to do so, in my opinion. A smart Voldemort would have every ally he could summon to the fight, and hurl them at Harry first.
Indeed, if Voldemort looks at the facts, he will see that teamwork is what beat Dumbledore. Draco opened the door, and the Death Eaters came in force.
So if Harry DOES insist on fulfilling the prophesy literally (he just runs off and takes on Voldemort alone, as Luke did the Emperor alone), he is history. He is only a 6th level student at Hogwarts (and, I would argue, not the best or brightest of those students) not the greatest living wizard (Voldemort) in the world.

Should Rowling have made things dark? Probably.
But why this dark? Why focus on the dark so very much?
I would like to see more of Flitwick and Sprout, more of Hagrid, more of Nick, more merriment and humor and lightness. Not everything Hogwarts is Snape, or Filch, or sadistic Ministry of Magic badness.
It just seems like Voldemort and his influence has come in and taken over, right from the start. Before Harry ever had a chance to really grow to love Hogwarts as he should have loved it, Voldemort came in and poisoned everything. Voldemort, persistent Voldemort, just threw his poison splattering over every character and every event, until Hogwarts made the Dursleys seem friendly in comparison.
This is why I say it should go in the Oliver Twist category. That famous series, by the renown Charles Dickens, focused on the darkness and tragedy also. But I think this series is going to be a little rough on kids. It needs to lighten up: not everything is grim gloom.

If Rowling kills Harry Potter, as some people thought she might do, then my point is made in spades. But I hope that it doesn't come to that. What is the point of that? Where is the joy in reading for the reader if that happens?
If Ron and/or Hermione fall, the same thing goes, to a lesser extent.

Just some thoughts.

Edena_of_Neith

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