SPOILER WARNING: A thread about the Harry Potter books

[kingpaul]

[sblock]How many of you think Hagrid's next?[/sblock]

[sblock]I don't. I've got the feeling that its actually going to be Draco. After his encounter with Dumbledore, he's really beginning to rethink his allegiances. He bites it switching sides.[/sblock]

 

[shilsen]

That's quite true. In the stories of Charles Dickens, things are quite grim but the stories are extraordinary.
Harry Potter doesn't *have* to survive for the Harry Potter series to become Classics. He doesn't even have to live for these to be great children's stories.
I just sorta thought it'd be nice if he did live. And if Hermione and Ron lived. That's just me. I was a fan of the Oz books as a kid, and would not have liked it if Dorothy, the Scarecrow, and the Tin Woodsman all died. (Well, ok, the Oz books are aimed at a younger audience than Harry Potter is, but that's the best analogy that comes to mind at the moment.)

So your point is made. I just wish that Rowlings wouldn't kill any of the three main characters. Personal taste.

Whch is perfectly fine. I was just pointing out that you were moving from personal taste to an assumption that it's generally applicable to all, or even most, readers.

And ... I may get nuked for this, but ...

I would consider it to be false advertising in a literary sense, if they do.
Book One is a MUCH LIGHTER book than Book Six, and it advertises a lighter story with a lighter ending. So, if the series ends in a trainwreck of this sort, no warning of this was given to the reading in Book One, and that reader might just feel betrayed. (In the First Star Wars Trilogy, we at least know *where* Anakin is headed. There is no question as to the galatic trainwreck there. We were forewarned. We might not have been forewarned about *Jar Jar Binks*, but we know Anakin becomes Darth Vader.)

I know what you mean, but I think you're at least partly ignoring the context here. The Wizard of Oz, for example, was published as a single book. Consider how many years Rowling's books have spanned. Even if she had a general plan at the beginning, it's completely understandable, if not inevitable, that it would change over time. Also, consider that the audience she first wrote for has grown and matured while the series has gone on, so they would possibly lose interest in the series if it didn't similarly grow and mature.

In short, I think a "false advertising" accusation is a little shortsighted, though I understand your perspective.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

To get back to Harry and the Horcruxes (sounds like a 50's band, don't it?)...

Rowling's left a lot of possiblities that the search could go much quicker than we think. After all, there's RAB (mostly speculated to be Sirius' younger brother Regulas), and that the real locket is actually at 12 Grimmauld Place. There's also Kreatcher, who may know plenty about the horcruxes due to having been helping Regulas Black track down/find them. And I highly doubt the remaining Order of the Phoenix members are going to abandon Harry at this point in the game, especially not the last Marauder or the Weasleys, who see Harry as pretty much being one of their own.

Yeah, right now things are looking bleak for the good guys. From the common appearance, with Dumbledore's death, Voldemort looks poised to take it all. But how many times in other stories and films have we seen the Big Bad on the precipice of victory only to be toppled by the hero that was deemed at best a minor threat at the last moment? And when it's against all odds, doesn't that make the final victory for the good guys that much sweeter?

If anyone's interested in some theories, some of which are really good, check out the editorial section over at www.mugglenet.com. Even Mrs. Rowling has been impressed with the editorials written there. They've pondered the seeking of the horcruxes, as well as the final battle between Harry and Voldemort. I personally think that the simple fact Harry is so easily able to conjure a corporeal Patronus is going to play a part in the final battle. Of course, who's to say that Dumbledore didn't plan on his not being around when the time came for Harry to face his destiny, and thus leaving Harry some advice or tips on really advanced defensive magic?

***

As for Snape and his "teaching" methods, perhaps Dumbledore's reason for not intervening is to teach the students (and younger readers) some real-world lessons in that you're not going to be able to get along with everyone, and you've just got to work around that. But then again, most reputable schools would have tossed a teacher like Snape out on his greasy bum a long time ago, where Albus kept him around since he knew that he'd have need of Snape's spying services again some day.

***

Since the movies came out, my mind's eye has been painting the characters as looking/sounding like their respective actors. Of course, I only started reading the books after seeing the first movie, so that's not that surprising.

 

[Ilium]

Since the movies came out, my mind's eye has been painting the characters as looking/sounding like their respective actors. Of course, I only started reading the books after seeing the first movie, so that's not that surprising.

I started reading the books when they first came out, and I have always pictured Snape as Alan Rickman (or someone very much like him). When I found out he was going to play the role I was very pleased.

Gary Oldman as Sirius Black took me by surprise, though. He did a greate job, but I pictured somebody more physically imposing.

But the award for brilliant HP casting has to go to Kenneth Branagh as Gilderoy Lockhart. Perfect.

 

[Merlion]

I'm just trying to keep this thread as congenial as possible. We have serious differences over Harry Potter, and we do not want an argument. Just a discussion. I've seen too many threads closed due to overheating and arguing.

I dont see what any of that has to do with anything I've posted. I havent become heated or argued anything. And as I have said, the subject of orientation, of gay characters in stories, and the experiences of gay gamers have been discussed here with no problems.

A little courtesy and caution are in order, is all. Harry Potter may or may not be gay. If he turns out to be gay, and this is in the books (a lot of money says it won't be) then we can discuss it freely, no?

You dont seem to have understood my post at all. The 6th book pretty much makes it clear that he is straight. I was mentioning my feelings on that fact, since I had felt like there were signs that he might not be, and signs also that Rowling might eventually at least include a nod to the added diffaculties of growing up gay, specifically.

There are few to no deccent gay characters in fantasy, even less who are young, and that makes me sad. Rowling seemed like an author who might try to change that, but now it appears not to be the case.

I think your making a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill here.

Me, I'd be quietly respectful. The last thing I want is a real life equivalent of a McGonagall temper fit thrown at me (anymore than Harry wanted 150 points taken from Gryffindor, plus detention, plus public humilation, plus the entire school turning on him, plus McGonagall's continued anger and outrage.)

Why would any fits be thrown at you because I said I'm disapointed that Rowling didnt include any gay characters? They only close threads when people continue to fight and be nasty or post inapropriate material non stop. None of those things have happened or are likely to, and they always begin by requesting that the person drop the subject. In the unlikely event of that happening I've already said I will.

It is dark because Rowlings chooses to focus on it.

I still wouldnt use the word "dark", but thats just me. What your describing would be more like intense, gritty, unfair. I also wouldnt say she focuses on those things. basically incidences of authority types ignoring stuff serve to allow those parts of the story to continue. Granted, its also often contradicting what she's established about her characters personalities.

Again, I do not think Neville could have survived what happened. The author made him survive it. I think honestly that he would have broken and quit, or flunked out. Certainly, what happened did not help him with his studies or his grades! All of this, because he want out afterhours to help some friends stay out of trouble? Neville never knew what was going on. He never knew anything about a dragon.

Dumbledore later exonerated them all for that, and gave Neville a special reward for his bravery in standing up to them, so I dont think thats a very good example.

Where was Dumbledore. This is what I call 'Dark.'

These things, the incidents of authority figures not solving problems are what I call characterization or plotting mistakes. She (arguably) sacrificed some of the credibility of how she has depicted the characters personalities in exchange for those characters not destroying part of her plot.

True enough, and true enough. If McGonagall was up to the challenge, there would be no story. This, however, is a flaw in itself: why is she deputy headmistress if she is not 'up to it'? Dumbledore would not appoint an incompetent as deputy.

If anyone's competence is in question, its Rowlings. But truthfully, especially for a writer like Rowling who's main strength...and obession, is highly structured plots and sub plots and mysteries and what not, she is often going to make sacrifices in other areas in order to maintain her plots, or to make maintaining them easier.

Its not what I would do, but I'm not a plot-based writer.

I think Rowlings should have approached this from a different storyline. Just my opinion. (Quirrel incapacitated her? Deluded her? Sent her off on a wild goose chase?)

Indeed. But, that does take more effort, and also takes up more time and word-space.

Seems to me that, by the end of Book Six, the light has been stamped out

To return all the brighter afterwards.

But if Harry turns out cynical, uncaring, and - worst of all - mundane, then the light is gone. With it goes the special quality of this set of books, where friendship, loyalty, honor, courage, and the spirit of youth makes the good things happen.

The thing is, the chances of that happening are basically none. The only way I see any chance of that kind of thing happening...in any objective way...is if she does decide she never wants to write Harry stories again and doesnt want anyone yapping at her about it. But even thats unlikely because it wouldnt work, and it would turn her fanbase against her. I really, really dont think we have anything to worry about.

 

[billd91]

You dont seem to have understood my post at all. The 6th book pretty much makes it clear that he is straight. I was mentioning my feelings on that fact, since I had felt like there were signs that he might not be, and signs also that Rowling might eventually at least include a nod to the added diffaculties of growing up gay, specifically.

There are few to no deccent gay characters in fantasy, even less who are young, and that makes me sad. Rowling seemed like an author who might try to change that, but now it appears not to be the case.

I can see how Harry Potter's version of being an outcast/outsider can look a bit like being gay or at least parallel some of the issues (being "in the closet" and so on). But I think it had more to do with Rowling using some of the same trappings of being gay to make him more of an outcast to his family and muggle society. It like the way X-men 2 used the same imagery in dealing with being a mutant. "Have you ever tried not being a mutant?" is the line that comes to mind. There are some interesting social parallels being drawn but I think that's all Rowling was shooting for.
Not that you still couldn't use Harry Potter in a very sympathetic way when addressing gay teens and how to deal with the social difficulties of being different...

 

[billd91]

Seems to me that, by the end of Book Six, the light has been stamped out. Again, just my opinion, and none of us will know until Book Seven is released. But if Harry turns out cynical, uncaring, and - worst of all - mundane, then the light is gone. With it goes the special quality of this set of books, where friendship, loyalty, honor, courage, and the spirit of youth makes the good things happen.

You throw in the towel too easily.

There are a lot of people who are thinking Harry's going to be one of the casualties of the series in the end. I can see why. But I think it would be a bad ending and so far Rowling has shown that she's probably smart enough to know that.
Think about it: If Harry dies in the confrontation with Voldemort, we end the 3rd straight book eulogizing some sympathetic character. Boring. It would be a horrible rut to get into. A better ending would be for Harry to be taking stock of what to do now, perhaps learning a lesson about what it means to be a heroic while also being an ass (I'm betting Snape is one of the characters who gets cacked by Voldemort for turning on him... yes, I believe Snape is still under cover in the Death Eater camp and opposing Voldemort even though he killed Dumbledore).
Because doing too much euologizing dead heroes would be bad for Book 7, I hope the "unexpected" deaths that Rowling had not originally planned happen early, in the first couple of acts.

Horcruxes: I think one may in Hogwarts. Makes some sense. Hidden right under everybody's nose. Probably the main reason Voldemort returned to ask for the Defense Against the Dark Arts job as Dumbledore surmised.
I think there will be some evidence of what horcrux Voldemort was intending to make by murdering Harry at the scene of the murders of his parents. Aside from Bill and Fleur's wedding, Harry's trip to his infant home will take up most of the book's opening chapters.

Other character:
Snape will be dead by the end of book 7
Draco will turn against Voldemort and, grudgingly, help Harry
Ollivander - currently referred to as missing - kidnapped by Voldemort to make him a new wand... one that cannot lead to a repeat of the priori incantatum since it will no longer be a brother to Harry's wand, but I doubt Ollivander will count as one of the 2 unexpected deaths that Rowling has talked about
Fred and George - we haven't seen the last of them, and I'm really hoping they aren't the 2 unexpected deaths... but it sure would have an effect
Percy - will see the light and join his parents - quite possibly one of the 2 unexpected deaths
Hagrid - he's the lead candidate, I think, for being one of the unexpected deaths
Moody - he's the other lead candidate, I think, for the unexpected deaths Rowling has talked about
Lupin and Tonks - survive to get married and, dare I say it, squeeze out a few puppies
<oh, I can't believe I said that...>

 

[Merlion]

I can see how Harry Potter's version of being an outcast/outsider can look a bit like being gay or at least parallel some of the issues (being "in the closet" and so on). But I think it had more to do with Rowling using some of the same trappings of being gay to make him more of an outcast to his family and muggle society

I dont know her intentions. Well apparently it looks now like she never even intended for it to be hinted out, however I almost wonder how she couldnt have. Some of the things are pretty obvious, especially given her fondness for wordplay and the like. Like the fact that he wasnt kept in the basement or the attic or a specially built cell, he was kept in the closet.

I wont even go into the issues of his relationship with Ron (especially in the fourth book, where Ron is deemed the person most important to him, and wherein they have what could easily be seen as a "lover's spat").

Its not just me either...like I said I've seen at least one article from some columnist or critic or something talking about it. Wether she intended them or not a lot of parallells can easily be made.

It like the way X-men 2 used the same imagery in dealing with being a mutant. "Have you ever tried not being a mutant?" is the line that comes to mind

That was intentionally. the whole bit with Bobby's parents was very obviously a coming out scene.

It was almost certainly not intentionall at first, but the X Men are widely seen used and felt as a metaphor for being gay, for various obvious reasons, and I think that seen was in homage to that fact.

Not that you still couldn't use Harry Potter in a very sympathetic way when addressing gay teens and how to deal with the social difficulties of being different...

No, but it would still be nice for a writer to come right out and do it, rather than just having similiar issues etc.

However as I said all else aside, thats something I hope to remedy myself one day.

Ollivander - currently referred to as missing - kidnapped by Voldemort to make him a new wand... one that cannot lead to a repeat of the priori incantatum since it will no longer be a brother to Harry's wand, but I doubt Ollivander will count as one of the 2 unexpected deaths that Rowling has talked about

I had never thought about this but your almost certainly right. Of course it raises questions about the whole "the wand chooses the wizard" bit, and wether one can have two wands at once...

Hagrid - he's the lead candidate, I think, for being one of the unexpected deaths

I very strongly hope not. This for most readers would be almost as bad as killing one of the main three. She's already killed Harry's mentor and one of his main surrogate father figures.

I hope any further deaths are characters we arent quite as emotionally attached to. Percy would be good for this as you've mentioned.

 

[Plane Sailing]

No offense, but your hands must be fairly small then.

When my sister was little, she would say "I don't mean to be rude but..." and would then proceed to be rude.

Your comment above was completely unnecessary (and completely wrong). Please consider what you type more carefully in the future.

If you ever feel the need to type 'no offense' before your sentence, you should probably not type it at all.

Regards

 

[Plane Sailing]

(Moderator)
Merlion, please drop your 'gay issues' comments in this thread please.

Edina asked you not to derail the thread, now I'm telling you. If you can't do that, then don't post in this thread again please. You may start a new thread to discuss some of those issues if you really want.

Please email me if you don't understand these instructions.

Thanks