D&D 5E [SPOILERS] Final encounter in Tyranny of Dragons and playing a wizard for 16 levels

[Sacrosanct]

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why 5e will never "win" on internet boards. We have one side complaining that casters aren't good enough because fighter types can do a lot of the same things, and another side complaining that fighter types can't do enough and are overshadowed by casters all the time.

At some point, I would expect people to say, "You know, I'm just gonna stick with the edition that I have the most fun playing and leave this other edition alone."


Who am I kidding. This is the internet. It's not enough to have fun playing an edition you like, but you have to make sure everyone knows how much you dislike other editions. I don't see that ever changing, sadly.

 

[Tony Vargas]

When fighters can self heal and monks can cast darkness, it really doesn't seem that magical when the arcane caster delays a foe for a round. A 5th level fighter can effectively do that with a prone/grab.

Said monks are using magic, and at the level being discussed here, 1d10+15 maybe every other encounter, is not a lot of self-healing. It's also not like a fighter of any level can prone/grab Tiamat.

Sure, the Ranger can sustain that damage longer, but the martial classes need something going for them. In 5e martials aren't just there to get beaten on and take out whatever trash the casters don't feel is worth wasting a spell on. Martials are the shock troopers of 5e.

The Ranger is a caster, too. The few martial archetypes in 5e do seem to be specialized (in combat) in single-target DPR. Champion & Battlemaster multi-attacking, Berserker rage, and Thief & Assassin sneak attack. They differ in how they deliver it, and what (if anything) their other features let them do out of combat.

Fighters started dishing pretty high DPR back in 1e UA (c1983, IIRC), so that's not really anything too new. In 3e, fighters used to customizeable to do other things, and in 4e only half the martial classes were Strikers, so I guess that's technically a change. It's just that you make it sound like martial characters have only recently been elevated to DPR beatstick by 5e, when, in fact, some of them had been at it a long time, and, this millennium, they'd been up for significantly more than just DPR, until 5e.

At some point, I would expect people to say, "You know, I'm just gonna stick with the edition that I have the most fun playing and leave this other edition alone."

Who am I kidding. This is the internet. It's not enough to have fun playing an edition you like, but you have to make sure everyone knows how much you dislike other editions. I don't see that ever changing, sadly.

I think it's already changed. Sure, there are some legitimate criticisms of 5e, but they're from people playing 5e, not edition warriors who just want to bring the game down even though they're happily playing something else that can never be taken away from them.

Here, Celtavian may feel casters aren't all they should be, but he's reporting on getting that feeling from playing 5e. I may see cracks in the system, but I see them when I'm running 5e (and patching 'em up on the fly).

 

[Fanaelialae]

The Ranger is a caster, too. The few martial archetypes in 5e do seem to be specialized (in combat) in single-target DPR. Champion & Battlemaster multi-attacking, Berserker rage, and Thief & Assassin sneak attack. They differ in how they deliver it, and what (if anything) their other features let them do out of combat.

Fighters started dishing pretty high DPR back in 1e UA (c1983, IIRC), so that's not really anything too new. In 3e, fighters used to customizeable to do other things, and in 4e only half the martial classes were Strikers, so I guess that's technically a change. It's just that you make it sound like martial characters have only recently been elevated to DPR beatstick by 5e, when, in fact, some of them had been at it a long time, and, this millennium, they'd been up for significantly more than just DPR, until 5e.

Ranger is a caster, but only insofar as the Paladin is a caster. IME, the 5e Paladin feels more like a martial class than a caster (though I don't deny it's there). In my previous post I should have clarified that I was speaking of full casters.

Fighters could dish out decent damage in 1e/2e, but unless they happened to luck into 18/percentile Strength, their bonuses were quite marginal. You could use magic items or Wishes to increase your Strength, but that depended heavily on how generous your DM happened to be. Specialization helped, but only to a point. Admittedly, a Fighter with an 18/00 was a force to be reckoned with, but it was a rarity.

In 3e, martial classes got a boost in power, but an unbuffed Fighter still couldn't hold a candle to a Wizard going nova by the mid-levels.

The feeling that I've gotten while playing 5e is that the gap between casters and martials has narrowed considerably. A mid-level caster going nova can still out damage a fighter, but the fighter is in the same ballpark, not the kiddie leagues.

YMMV of course.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The feeling that I've gotten while playing 5e is that the gap between casters and martials has narrowed considerably. A mid-level caster going nova can still out damage a fighter, but the fighter is in the same ballpark, not the kiddie leagues.

I haven't found this to be the case. Fighters are supreme when it comes to single-target nova DPR, with the possible exception of Sorlocks. (Sorlock vs. fighter nova is very circumstantial and depends on things like access to Sharpshooter/GWM feats, enemy base AC, Bless/Faerie Fire buffs from other party members, etc.)

For example, assuming maxed prime stats, the following DPRs hold:

9th level wizard vs. Frost Giant: Scorching Ray V will do 35 damage 70% of the time, so 24.5 damage on average.

9th level fighter vs. Frost Giant: Archery Style + Sharpshooter will do 39 damage 55% of the time, or 21.45 on an average round. 26.3 if he's Blessed, 31.5 damage if he's got advantage, 34.9 if he's got both, and double all of that if he Action Surges. Taking Hex with one of those extra ASIs can increase that damage a little bit more but it's almost pointless IMO--better to take Lucky or something actually useful, and spend your concentration on Magic Weapon instead. BTW, Magic Weapon increases damage from 21.45 to 24.6 even without Bless/advantage/action surge, and if he's an Eldritch Knight he can self-cast it. Also useful against elementals and such.

9th level SorLock (Warlock 2, Sorcerer 7) vs. Frost Giant: Assuming Agonizing Blast and Hex, will do 28 damage 70% of the time. That's 19.6 points of damage on the first round, with the option to double that to 39.2 on the second round by Quickening Eldritch Blast. Could forgo Hex on round 1 to quicken EB, resulting in 32.2 damage instead. In the best-case scenario (fellow party members have both Bless and Faerie Fire up, and target is Hexed) that goes up to 55 points of damage, compared to 70 for the fighter.

Against higher AC foes, the SorLock will do relatively better, but against CR 8 foes like the Frost Giant, the Fighter still has a bigger nova than the SorLock does, although the Sorlock can do it more frequently.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I haven't found this to be the case. Fighters are supreme when it comes to single-target nova DPR, with the possible exception of Sorlocks. (Sorlock vs. fighter nova is very circumstantial and depends on things like access to Sharpshooter/GWM feats, enemy base AC, Bless/Faerie Fire buffs from other party members, etc.)

For example, assuming maxed prime stats, the following DPRs hold:

9th level wizard vs. Frost Giant: Scorching Ray V will do 35 damage 70% of the time, so 24.5 damage on average.

9th level fighter vs. Frost Giant: Archery Style + Sharpshooter will do 39 damage 55% of the time, or 21.45 on an average round. 26.3 if he's Blessed, 31.5 damage if he's got advantage, 34.9 if he's got both, and double all of that if he Action Surges. Taking Hex with one of those extra ASIs can increase that damage a little bit more but it's almost pointless IMO--better to take Lucky or something actually useful, and spend your concentration on Magic Weapon instead. BTW, Magic Weapon increases damage from 21.45 to 24.6 even without Bless/advantage/action surge, and if he's an Eldritch Knight he can self-cast it. Also useful against elementals and such.

9th level SorLock (Warlock 2, Sorcerer 7) vs. Frost Giant: Assuming Agonizing Blast and Hex, will do 28 damage 70% of the time. That's 19.6 points of damage on the first round, with the option to double that to 39.2 on the second round by Quickening Eldritch Blast. Could forgo Hex on round 1 to quicken EB, resulting in 32.2 damage instead. In the best-case scenario (fellow party members have both Bless and Faerie Fire up, and target is Hexed) that goes up to 55 points of damage, compared to 70 for the fighter.

Against higher AC foes, the SorLock will do relatively better, but against CR 8 foes like the Frost Giant, the Fighter still has a bigger nova than the SorLock does, although the Sorlock can do it more frequently.

Or the wizard could cast an actual 5th level spell to do real damage. Scorching Ray is a great single target DPR spell for a 2nd level spell, but not for a 5th level spell. You're comparing one of the strongest fighter builds against a sub-par wizard option.

A wizard can cast animate object to animate 10 small objects which hit the frost giant 60% of the time for 6.5 damage each, or 39 average damage (the same as the unbuffed fighter). After the first round the wizard can add any non-concentration spells (Scorching Ray?) to the mix to stack even more damage on top of that.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Ranger is a caster, but only insofar as the Paladin is a caster. IME, the 5e Paladin feels more like a martial class than a caster (though I don't deny it's there). In my previous post I should have clarified that I was speaking of full casters.

So called 'half'-casters may not get the high-level spell power of full casters, but they still gain a caster's versatility...

Fighters could dish out decent damage in 1e/2e, but unless they happened to luck into 18/percentile Strength, their bonuses were quite marginal.

In 1e, prior to UA, with conservative ability generation, sure. Double-specialization and TWFing but the post-UA 1e and 2e fighters had DPR to spare (we didn't call it that back then, of course). As far as items, the charts in the AD&D DMG were weighted towards fighter-useful items, like magic arms & armor, as well, and 2e didn't change that much.

In 3e, martial classes got a boost in power, but an unbuffed Fighter still couldn't hold a candle to a Wizard going nova by the mid-levels.

I quite liked the 3.5 fighter, but was more for the customizeability. There were high-damage builds, and completing certain feat trees could be pretty impressive, but it didn't really match the DPR of the old 'quisinart of doom' fighters (nor the 5e fighter) - not relative to the AC & hps of monsters in 3e.

The feeling that I've gotten while playing 5e is that the gap between casters and martials has narrowed considerably. A mid-level caster going nova can still out damage a fighter, but the fighter is in the same ballpark, not the kiddie leagues.

It has, relative to 3.5, when the gap was at its widest. The 5e fighter's action surge lets him nova pretty hard, too. When it comes to DPR, the 5e fighter is right up there with the heaviest hitters - which is the minimum you'd expect, given how little else the actual class delivers, especially for the Champion. It's not like when the Fighter was Tier 5, and couldn't even stack up next to the Tier 1s at his specialty.

The caster/non-caster gap is probably closer to what it was in AD&D (again, w/double-specialization, and a good load-out of magic items). 5e casters just have somewhat fewer slots at high level and a less broken spell list counting against them - and better chances of high-level foes failing saves, and far fewer restrictions/limitations on casting, itself in the plus column.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Or the wizard could cast an actual 5th level spell to do real damage. Scorching Ray is a great single target DPR spell for a 2nd level spell, but not for a 5th level spell. You're comparing one of the strongest fighter builds against a sub-par wizard option.

A wizard can cast animate object to animate 10 small objects which hit the frost giant 60% of the time for 6.5 damage each, or 39 average damage (the same as the unbuffed fighter). After the first round the wizard can add any non-concentration spells (Scorching Ray?) to the mix to stack even more damage on top of that.

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize you meant to include summoning spells in the "nova" category. Yes, summoning 16 wolves (druid 9) is generally superior to any DPR a fighter can manage. Animate Objects is okay too, as is Conjure Elemental, not to mention Animate Dead. Conjuring spells do come with some built-in hassle (concentration, HP tracking, lots and lots of miniatures, doesn't work well in cramped quarters), but they are great at letting you punch aside your weight class.

 

[Celtavian]

Ranger is a caster, but only insofar as the Paladin is a caster. IME, the 5e Paladin feels more like a martial class than a caster (though I don't deny it's there). In my previous post I should have clarified that I was speaking of full casters.

Fighters could dish out decent damage in 1e/2e, but unless they happened to luck into 18/percentile Strength, their bonuses were quite marginal. You could use magic items or Wishes to increase your Strength, but that depended heavily on how generous your DM happened to be. Specialization helped, but only to a point. Admittedly, a Fighter with an 18/00 was a force to be reckoned with, but it was a rarity.

In 3e, martial classes got a boost in power, but an unbuffed Fighter still couldn't hold a candle to a Wizard going nova by the mid-levels.

The feeling that I've gotten while playing 5e is that the gap between casters and martials has narrowed considerably. A mid-level caster going nova can still out damage a fighter, but the fighter is in the same ballpark, not the kiddie leagues.

YMMV of course.

Yep. Fighters do a ton of damage, especially when they action surge and use Superiority Dice. I don't mind. The reality is those numbers make a wizard feel envy, until he does a bunch of stuff the fighter can't even begin to do like teleport, cast fly, summon in a creature, or the like. Fighters are the very best at single target damage. I think that is appropriate because that is all they can really do. Even other martial classes are more versatile.

 

[AmerginLiath]

That does sound fun. That's what I mean about going all Kobyashi Maru on a scenario. Can't hurt something with direct magic? Use it to drop a boulder on the enemy, summon something to smack them, or make them think they need to surrender.

As a man whose caster back in the day once broke a Great Wyrm's back by summoning a whale and proving that the Laws of Gravity top the Laws of Magic, I can only say YES, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!!

 

[Celtavian]

As a man whose caster back in the day once broke a Great Wyrm's back by summoning a whale and proving that the Laws of Gravity top the Laws of Magic, I can only say YES, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES YES!!!

You can do this with wish. If you do use wish to do it, you get to roll a 33% you never get to cast wish again.