D&D 5E [SPOILERS] Final encounter in Tyranny of Dragons and playing a wizard for 16 levels

[KarinsDad]

5e set out to make magic feel more magical, and to be more versatile, powerful, and greater in scope

It did? I didn't get the memo.

5E magic feels pretty mundane. It seems extremely watered down (compared to 3E for example) except for a very few spells.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

5e set out to make magic feel more magical, and to be more versatile, powerful, and greater in scope - all (along with many other things) to re-capture the feel of the classic game. That means resorting to the same sorts of tricks the classic game did to counter such magic, including spell immunity. There's probably quite a lot of other immunities that aren't as (wet) blanket, but still apply to lots of spells. 5e doesn't seem to have gone for anything quite as impactful as old-school magic resistance, though. I'd consider adding something like that back in to make demons/devils/etc a little scarier.

Yeah, new-style magic resistance is kind of weak. You can Fireball Mind Flayers! Since when was that supposed to be possible?

I'll have to think about re-introducing MR% as a thing, probably as a replacement for legendary resistances. Say 10% per legendary resistance, and it works against ki as well as spells, and gets checked every round vs ongoing effects like Hold Monster/Maze. Yeah, that might work.

And of course Mind Flayers get 90%, like usual.

 

[Tony Vargas]

5E magic feels pretty mundane. It seems extremely watered down (compared to 3E for example) except for a very few spells.

It all depends on what you compare it to. Compared to spellcasting in the ed where spellcasters were the mostly wildly overpowered ever, it's toned down a bit. Compared to the mundane abilities of the few non-magical PC options in 5e, 5e magic looks pretty darn magical.

Though, yes, D&D has always had an issue with the sheer amount of magic systematically available in the form of dependable, predictable, daily spells making magic feel 'mundane' in the sense of being just another renewable resource.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yeah, new-style magic resistance is kind of weak. You can Fireball Mind Flayers! Since when was that supposed to be possible?

I'll have to think about re-introducing MR% as a thing, probably as a replacement for legendary resistances. Say 10% per legendary resistance, and it works against ki as well as spells, and gets checked every round vs ongoing effects like Hold Monster/Maze. Yeah, that might work.

If Tiamat had 5 legendary resistance, that's 50% MR? I could see going higher.

The nice thing about 5e being so up-front about DM tinkering being perfectly OK, is you can peg the distribution and degree of magic resistance among the monsters you use to the amount of trouble you're having with casters tirivializing encounters in your campaign. From none, right up to fighting old-school Drow every day.

And of course Mind Flayers get 90%, like usual.

That's a lot of equivalent legendary resistance.

Then all we'd need is a psion class to trade Mind Blasts with them.

 

[KarinsDad]

It all depends on what you compare it to. Compared to spellcasting in the ed where spellcasters were the mostly wildly overpowered ever, it's toned down a bit. Compared to the mundane abilities of the few non-magical PC options in 5e, 5e magic looks pretty darn magical.

When fighters can self heal and monks can cast darkness, it really doesn't seem that magical when the arcane caster delays a foe for a round. A 5th level fighter can effectively do that with a prone/grab.

 

[Fanaelialae]

When fighters can self heal and monks can cast darkness, it really doesn't seem that magical when the arcane caster delays a foe for a round. A 5th level fighter can effectively do that with a prone/grab.

Yeah, because a prone/grab is totally on par with Web, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Dominate Monster, and Wish.

(In case it isn't clear, the above is intended as sarcasm.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

If Tiamat had 5 legendary resistance, that's 50% MR? I could see going higher.

If I'm letting MR apply every round, then 50% MR is plenty. It means you might be able to nuke her with Scorching Ray or something, but you can delay her only briefly with Maze/etc.

That's a lot of equivalent legendary resistance.

Then all we'd need is a psion class to trade Mind Blasts with them.

Yeah, 90% is really, really high. Mind Flayers have always been essentially immune to magic, even moreso than dragons/demons/etc. They're from otherwhere. Given the new MR proposal I might actually have to tone it down to 75% or so. Either way, they should have MR higher than Tiamat, because that's their shtick and hers is just "dragon scaled up by a factor of five."

 

[KarinsDad]

Yeah, because a prone/grab is totally on par with Web, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Dominate Monster, and Wish.

(In case it isn't clear, the above is intended as sarcasm.)

And here I thought you were trying to be serious pulling out the 8th level spell Dominate Monster (which is almost never cast at 99% of tables because most casters are not high enough to ever cast it) or the 9th level spell Wish (which is also almost never cast at 99% of tables because most casters are not high enough to ever cast it).

Yes, the super uber wonderful spells are in the game, but it doesn't mean that they get that much spotlight time at all.


Using Wish as an example is like saying "Well, an American can grow up to be President". Sure, that could happen, but it's so rare that it's not worth talking about. I've played D&D for nearly 4 decades and have never seen a caster get high enough level to cast Wish. Ever. Yeah, it can happen, but it's far from a good example of the wonders of 5E magic.


Or we could talk about Melf's Acid Arrow that does about 15 points of damage (about 10 points the first round and 5 points the second round), less than the damage that a Ranger often does with a bow (D8 + 3 + D6 Hunter's Mark + D8 Colossus Slayer) most rounds. The number of spells that pretty much suck compared to the number that are good is a high ratio. Which in turn means that most casters end up spamming the same spells day after day after day. Magic also seems mundane because the Ranger not only has spells, but his spells allow him to do a similar level of damage to arcane spells round after round after round most of the day.

Granted, magic does get nicer at higher levels. No doubt. It's still not that magical compared to normal mundane abilities when one considers that almost every single class can get spells. Wow! The Warlock is finally able to cast Vampiric Touch. At the same point in time that the fighter is attacking twice per round, parrying half of the attacks against him, healing himself once between short rests, and using a feat. So yeah, the Warlock can do a little damage, heal a little, and the fighter still does more damage and mitigates more damage. Color me unimpressed with that cool magical spell that is overall less effective than the mundane abilities.

 

[CapnZapp]

I would definitely play a wizard again, though I would try a different specialization.

Thank you. That's all I need to hear.

 

[Fanaelialae]

And here I thought you were trying to be serious pulling out the 8th level spell Dominate Monster (which is almost never cast at 99% of tables because most casters are not high enough to ever cast it) or the 9th level spell Wish (which is also almost never cast at 99% of tables because most casters are not high enough to ever cast it).

Yes, the super uber wonderful spells are in the game, but it doesn't mean that they get that much spotlight time at all.


Using Wish as an example is like saying "Well, an American can grow up to be President". Sure, that could happen, but it's so rare that it's not worth talking about. I've played D&D for nearly 4 decades and have never seen a caster get high enough level to cast Wish. Ever. Yeah, it can happen, but it's far from a good example of the wonders of 5E magic.


Or we could talk about Melf's Acid Arrow that does about 15 points of damage (about 10 points the first round and 5 points the second round), less than the damage that a Ranger often does with a bow (D8 + 3 + D6 Hunter's Mark + D8 Colossus Slayer) most rounds. The number of spells that pretty much suck compared to the number that are good is a high ratio. Which in turn means that most casters end up spamming the same spells day after day after day. Magic also seems mundane because the Ranger not only has spells, but his spells allow him to do a similar level of damage to arcane spells round after round after round most of the day.

Granted, magic does get nicer at higher levels. No doubt. It's still not that magical compared to normal mundane abilities when one considers that almost every single class can get spells. Wow! The Warlock is finally able to cast Vampiric Touch. At the same point in time that the fighter is attacking twice per round, parrying half of the attacks against him, healing himself once between short rests, and using a feat. So yeah, the Warlock can do a little damage, heal a little, and the fighter still does more damage and mitigates more damage. Color me unimpressed with that cool magical spell that is overall less effective than the mundane abilities.

That list had spells from levels 2, 4, 8, and 9. Why focus on just Dominate Monster and Wish in your response when I certainly didn't limit the list to such? I assume that most tables will see level 2 to 4 spells.

I think you're misinterpreting the intent of Melf's. It's a tactical spell, not a DPR spell. It's job is to knock out a creature's regeneration for two rounds (assuming that their regen is suppressed by acid). If you add in the 10 points a troll would otherwise regenerate over those two round (bringing the effective damage up to 35) it suddenly doesn't look bad at all.

If you want to compare DPR use a spell designed for it, like Scorching Ray. The Ranger deals an average of 15.5 (going off what you posted above). Scorching Ray deals an average of 21, and has added advantages as well (can split the attacks between targets, three chances to crit vs one, and it's less binary than the Ranger's one arrow). Looks good to me.

Sure, the Ranger can sustain that damage longer, but the martial classes need something going for them. In 5e martials aren't just there to get beaten on and take out whatever trash the casters don't feel is worth wasting a spell on. Martials are the shock troopers of 5e.

As for that last point, again you're comparing apples with oranges. Any Warlock who wants to deal good damage takes Agonizing Blast and Hex, so his Eldritch Blast is dealing more damage than a Fighter's attacks on average. Only Battlemaster Fighters get Parry, and it only works once per round, up to four times between short rests (assuming you don't want to use any other maneuvers). It also only reduces damage and is based on Dex, so unless the Fighter is finesse based that's probably a maximum of 1d8 + 2 (avg 6.5, or 26 total per short rest). Not bad, but a warlock can cast Armor of Agathys to gain 15 temporary hp and additionally deal 15 damage to every creature that hits him until those temps are gone. The Warlock has two spell slots per short rest at that level, so he can soak up 30 damage, and he's dishing out 30 to 60 points of damage on top of that. The Fighter can heal 1d10 + level per short rest. The Warlock can fight effectively in a Darkness spell with Devil's Sight, or hit enemies from such a distance that they'll be dead before they ever reach him using Eldritch Spear.

YMMV, but IMO, casters can do some amazing things even at low levels. Things that a non-caster can't ever hope do. While the closest I've played to date is a Paladin, I can tell you that as a DM I worry far more about how the spell casters will "ruin my plans" than what the Barbarian or Rogue will do.