D&D 5E [SPOILERS] Final encounter in Tyranny of Dragons and playing a wizard for 16 levels

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
The final encounter in Tyranny Dragons against Tiamat was boring, especially as a caster. The fight consisting of casting a fly spell and watching the martial characters swing at Tiamat. They designed Tiamat to be completely immune to magic for all intents and purposes.

1. Immune to spells below 6th level, meaning cantrips and all but two spell slots at level 15. You have 1 7th and 1 8th level spell slot at 15th level to possibly affect her.
2. Immune to most types of energy or resistance. It doesn't much matter considering she is immune to all your spells below 6th level including your cantrips.
3. Multiple uses of Legendary Resistance in case one of your two spell slots happens to affect her.
4. Resistant to damage from non-magical weapons making animate objects marginally useful for damage.

So the entire fight was designed to make casters useless in combat. Basically, you buff the martials and stand around doing nothing. If this is the kind of encounter design we can expect from WotC, I see no reason to play a caster at all.

The leader of the Cult's activities, Severin, was a complete push over. He didn't last a round or two. We obliterated him with ease.

The fight consisted of Tiamat's heads coming through one per round while the martials unloaded on her with bless, smites, action surges, superiority dice, and a vow. We healed the paladin, since he was the main target of her ire due to al the smite damage he unloaded. The barbarian/fighter used reckless with his superiority dice doing a ton of damage using Great Weapon Mastery. Once he ran out of superiority dice and had done well over 150 to 200 damage, he swung without Great Weapon Mastery.

Cleric healed and stayed out of combat to maintain bless. Bard cast Circle of Power and fly. Not sure if it was intended, but we allowed Circle of Power to work against Tiamat's breath weapons considering them magical effects, since dragons are listed as magical creatures and their breath weapons were considered magical in 3rd edition. No way to determine other than DM choice, creature description, and recent precedent, so we allowed it to work. My wizard pretty much stood around doing nothing. Fortunately, he didn't need to do anything.

Not a very fun encounter for a caster. I imagine the martials had fun swinging. It was all over fairly quick. 500 plus hit points gets eaten up pretty quick by a Great Weapon using Fighter/Barbarian with a magic dragon slaying sword and a smiting paladin using Vow of Enmity.

Life as a wizard: The wizard is pretty powerful when the deck isn't stacked against him by designers that make opponents with flashing neon signs that say "Only martials may kill this. Buff them and read a book."

Positives:
1. Spell list is the most versatile of the casters. You have the largest spell selection. You get the most spells by virtue of class progression. You can change your memorized spells as needed per day. You can easily put any new spells found into your spell book. No other class has this level of versatility or even close to it.

2. You are the best at using ritual magic. You don't need to use a precious memorization slot for a ritual spell. You especially don't need to use an even more precious spell known slot for a ritual spell. As long as the spell is in your book, you get to use it as a ritual. No other class can so conveniently use ritual spells. There are a few ritual spells like Leomund's Tiny Hut and Contact Higher Plane (once the Int save is trivial) that are useful.

3. I found the evocation specialist enjoyable. The boosted damage from adding my ability modifier to evocation spell damage helped at times. The ability to maximize spell damage was occasionally useful, especially for clearing trash.

Negatives:
1. End encounter monster design is geared to neuter casters in this edition. Legendary Resistance coupled with all the other spell resisting special abilities makes for a feeling of uselessness as an end game caster that pretty much forces you to buff the martials and let them swing at things. Most other encounters you're highly useful, but end game encounters against Legendary Creatures are built to make casters useless. You might as well be throwing pebbles at a stone wall in those encounters. I can't say it is particularly enjoyable as a player.

Overall, the wizard is a wizard. Life is easier for you. You get to travel more efficiently than everyone else with teleport and other travel spells. You have access to a vast array of spells that will grow as more books are released. You are the master of AoE effects. You have lots of offensive, defensive, and utility options that no one else but another caster has access to. Life is good as a high level wizard the vast majority of the time both in and out of combat. I would definitely play a wizard again, though I would try a different specialization.
 
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Prism

Explorer
The final encounter in Tyranny Dragons against Tiamat was boring, especially as a caster. The fight consisting of casting a fly spell and watching the martial characters swing at Tiamat. They designed Tiamat to be completely immune to magic for all intents and purposes.

1. Immune to spells below 6th level, meaning cantrips and all but two spell slots at level 15. You have 1 7th and 1 8th level spell slot at 15th level to possible affect her.
2. Immune to most types of energy or resistance. It doesn't much matter considering she is immune to all your spells below 6th level including your cantrips.
3. Multiple uses of Legendary Resistance in case one of your two spell slots happens to affect her.
4. Resistant to damage from non-magical weapons making animate objects marginally useful for damage.


Yeah you did pretty well as a party to beat her as most of the abilities are her godlike ones. The module states that unless you remove those immunities through other actions you stand little chance of survival so you must have played well as a group. The spell and elemental immunity in particular is a pain to deal with as any spellcaster.

For the legendary resistance I guess you need the other spellcasters to help break those down. I am surprised the cleric managed to avoid the breath weapons as they are huge, especially when used from the air
 


Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Yeah you did pretty well as a party to beat her as most of the abilities are her godlike ones. The module states that unless you remove those immunities through other actions you stand little chance of survival so you must have played well as a group. The spell and elemental immunity in particular is a pain to deal with as any spellcaster.

For the legendary resistance I guess you need the other spellcasters to help break those down. I am surprised the cleric managed to avoid the breath weapons as they are huge, especially when used from the air

Tiamat was immune to 6th level spells or lower. There was no way to break her Legendary Resistance period. We had three casters with a total of six slots over 6th level. I believe she had five uses of Legendary Resistance. The chances of breaking it were like winning the power ball lottery, maybe lower.

I'm not sure how other parties did it. I don't know if our DM chose to run things differently. Sometimes he runs things his own way, sometimes he goes by the book. Whatever he thinks is cool and fun.

We discussed it a bit afterwards. They had it very badly set up at the end for accomplishing some of the goals. The scale of the maps was so vast that moving from wizard to wizard to slow down the ritual was almost impossible in the time allotted. We knew attempting to kill five adult dragons wouldn't be possible in the time allotted. We managed to hold onto the black mask throughout the adventure, so that helped.

Our opening tactic after assessing what was going on was to dimension door to the highest floating platform. We found Severin there, killed him, took the mask, and sent it out of the area using the wizard's familiar (which happened to be a polymorphed Silver Dragon). That was two weakenings. Then we cast fly on the bard, paladin, and fighter, let them go to town on the dragon with the bard keeping range with Circle of Power active.

The cleric and wizard stayed on the platform about 50 feet away from summoning aperture that Tiamat was coming through. That was within heal range and easy movement range should either of us need to get there quickly using a fly. The wizard would have played defense. We killed enough of the wizards nearest to Tiamat not to have to worry about it too much. Setting up on the top platform allowed the cleric to stay clear of breath weapons moving back and forth when needing to heal. We easily maintained 3/4 cover from everything else trying to get us.

Terrain is always the friend of the tactical mind.
 
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Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Thanks [MENTION=5834]Celtavian[/MENTION], I have appreciated your posts on the wizard. Very insightful.

Pleasure to provide it. The wizard was a big concern of mine with the new edition as was magic in general. I didn't need to be as dominant as the 3E wizard or 3E casters were in general. I needed magic to feel like magic meaning different than the capabilities of martials, more powerful than what other classes (especially martials) could accomplish (not necessarily in terms of damage, but in effect), and tactically interesting in terms of problem solving in and out of combat. I felt the wizard met all three of my criteria without going overboard like 3E casters. At every level you pulled off things no one else could pull off, but at the same time you were never so powerful that any other group members felt unnecessary or overshadowed. Even in the end game encounter against Tiamat when my wizard couldn't do much in combat, he was the only one that was going to get us out of there if things went bad. I was sitting on my teleport just in case. I had maze ready for a short respite from Tiamat if we needed it. I believe maze is an ability check rather than a saving throw, thus allowing it to bypass Legendary Resistance. That's one thing I recommend every wizard player do: read the spell text carefully. Small differences in text can make all the difference in battle.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
When I played a wizard in past editions (1e,2e,3e especially) contingency plans and escapes were my bread and butter. Good planning.

Oh, Celt, I didn't mean to laugh at your post, I meant to xp it. Dang fingers are too big to type on my phone. Cheers.
 


Prism

Explorer
Tiamat was immune to 6th level spells or lower. There was no way to break her Legendary Resistance period. We had three casters with a total of six slots over 6th level. I believe she had five uses of Legendary Resistance. The chances of breaking it were like winning the power ball lottery, maybe lower.

I'm not sure how other parties did it. I don't know if our DM chose to run things differently. Sometimes he runs things his own way, sometimes he goes by the book. Whatever he thinks is cool and fun.

[SPOILERS]

What I meant was there is a way in the module to break the spell immunity and if the party doesn't they are likely to fail - but you didn't fail which is cool. And once mid level spells become an option there are more chances to try and use up the legendary resistances. The DM sounds great

Thanks for the report. I have read it and our group is probably not going to play the Rise of Tiamat after the Hoard, which we should finish this coming week. Interesting to see how it played out
 
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Whizbang Dustyboots

Gnometown Hero
Long-time wizard (illusionist) player here: Just because you can't directly affect something with your spells, that doesn't mean you're helpless. I don't know the environment you were playing in, but unless it was some sort of air-filled bubble floating in the void, using magic to turn the environment against the foe is almost always an option, whether it's turning a floor (or ceiling) to mud, setting fire to things the BBEG wants intact, taking away the enemy's ability to use the environment against your allies, and so on.

Maybe your spell selection was just set up to be a machine gun against your enemies, but if that's the case, you're missing out on a lot of the historical versatility of the wizard. Whether through spell selection, scrolls or wands/staffs, a wide spell selection is a wizard's bread and butter. Otherwise, you're just a reskinned warlock.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Long-time wizard (illusionist) player here: Just because you can't directly affect something with your spells, that doesn't mean you're helpless. I don't know the environment you were playing in, but unless it was some sort of air-filled bubble floating in the void, using magic to turn the environment against the foe is almost always an option, whether it's turning a floor (or ceiling) to mud, setting fire to things the BBEG wants intact, taking away the enemy's ability to use the environment against your allies, and so on.

Maybe your spell selection was just set up to be a machine gun against your enemies, but if that's the case, you're missing out on a lot of the historical versatility of the wizard. Whether through spell selection, scrolls or wands/staffs, a wide spell selection is a wizard's bread and butter. Otherwise, you're just a reskinned warlock.

You're talking to a long-term wizard player (various types) across every edition.

Not a bubble. A floating dimensional aperture 50 feet above the ground.

Have you played 5E? It does not sound like you've played 5E. There is very little that can affect the environment in 5E in terms of magic, especially with a 1 action casting times. Illusions are mostly useless against dragons due to blindsight and more useless against god dragons due to truesight.

In 5E you do not have easy access to scrolls, wands/staffs, and other such items. They are extremely rare and you cannot make them or buy them in the standard game.

None of the tactics you recommended were available or necessary. Once you start playing 5E, you will find the listed tactics very, very difficult to use as few spells allow that type of environmental manipulation at the moment. My spell list is set up to deal with a variety of problems that have plagued us as we leveled up. The reason I keep spells memorized that I might otherwise not in previous editions is because you have no means to make them permanent such as see invisibility or put on a scroll such as teleport or they have an excessively long casting time such as conjure elemental. It's a very different game. You have to be prepared for a lot of different possibilities with a smaller pool of available spells and magic items than previous editions.
 

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