[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread

[Buttercup]

Hi Buttercup. How have you been since I saw you at GenCon?

Fine thanks, and you? I hope you're going again next year. Perhaps we can game together!

No, I did not have an emotional reaction. I wept during the first movie but there was so much more time with the characters together as a fellowship then. RotK was...just so back and forth. And I also remember wondering why Sam could not just throw in the Ring on his own. So what if it was "Frodo's task?" The fate of the world was riding on them. Sam would not have minded if Frodo took the credit should that circumstance have occured.

I felt that RotK was too short, myself. I wanted more time to savor various bits. Perhaps that's the problem you were reacting to. As for why Sam couldn't do it, well, since he was Frodo's "second" if you will, I suppose he could have. But that would have destroyed his innocence. Of course the more cynical reason is that it wasn't in the script.

And something else I remember: Where the hell did those eagles come from at the end? I do recall one saving Gandalf from the top of that tower. But they have not been seen since! Did 'ol white robes have them on speed dial?! I;m sure this is explained in the books as well, but there was zilch in the movie (could have taken time from the end sequences to explain this in the middle ).

The eagles show up in the books too. Personally, they've always seemed a bit too much like deus ex machina to me, but I'll admit that they are less so in the books than in the movies. Gandalf is friends with Gwaihir the Windlord, who is the king of the eagles. Gwaihir is the one who rescues Gandalf from the cliff over moria, where he lay after defeating the balrog. Gwaihir also removes him from Orthanc when Saruman has him trapped on the roof. There's a line in the book where Gandalf asks Gwaihir to go and get Frodo & Sam after Mt. Doom starts exploding where he says something like "Third time pays for all' so perhaps Gandalf did the eagles a favor in the past. I haven't read any of the fragmentary stuff that Christopher Tolkien has published since his father's death, so it may be covered in one of those books.

 

[Napftor]

Fine thanks, and you? I hope you're going again next year. Perhaps we can game together!...

Haven't decided about next year's Con yet. It may have been a once in a lifetime thing...we'll see.

Thanks for the other info. The eagles were a bit deus ex machina indeed. And I see where you're coming from with savoring bits. The movie should have been split into two meatier bits. It may have solved my problem with the character's lack of screen time (and my subsequent shoulder shrug factor).

 

[Merlion]

On the Eagles: I am of the belief that the Eagles of the Misty Mountains are Maiar, just like Gandalf, Sauron and the Balrog. I mean, their giant talking sentient eagles after all.
But at the very least it is stated in the Silmarillion that they are direct servant of the Vala Manwe(as are all good avians), who is essentialy the true King of Arda(the Earth).
So they are another case of literal Deus Ex Machina...much like Gandalf's return from "death".

 

[pezagent]

So they are another case of literal Deus Ex Machina...much like Gandalf's return from "death".

Hi Merlion,

Both the Eagles and Gandalfs return are not examples of deux es machina--they weren't forces of great power that intervined with the story and abruptly ended it.

The Eagles are an obvious choice to help the characters escape from Mt. Doom as they were introduced earlier in the story. If Gandolf arrived on a flying carpet then there would be inconsistency within the story--but it still wouldn't be deux es machina.

Gandalf's return is more of a red herring if one is looking for a literary term to describe the event. Personally I probably wouldn't go that far, however, as only the characters reactions to his fall lead us to believe that Gandalf dies. The narrative never pushes the question or suggests that he is dead.

Regards,

/johnny

 

[Merlion]

Both the Eagles and Gandalfs return are not examples of deux es machina--they weren't forces of great power that intervined with the story and abruptly ended it.

I, and several others, were using the term loosely. I often hear it used to denote a situation where a higher(or unseen) power steps in to save or at least help the protaganists. I general here the term used to describe a powerful force intervining postively in a story, wether it ends it or not. It was also a reference to one of the reviews posted in another thread where the reviewer derisively uses the term in reference to Gandalf's return.
My point is within this story both Gandalf's return, and in my opnion the Eagles, are cases of forces that within this story are divine or godlike taking a hand in the story on the side of the protagonists. And that that makes that term..especialy the Deus part...rather apropriate.

 

[Buttercup]

From dictionary.com

deus ex ma·chi·na (

ks mä

k

-n

, -nä

, m

k

-n

) n.

1. In Greek and Roman drama, a god lowered by stage machinery to resolve a plot or extricate the protagonist from a difficult situation.
2. An unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot.
3. A person or event that provides a sudden and unexpected solution to a difficulty.

There isn't anything here about ending the story, although in ancient drama that certainly is what happened. The current meaning is more broad, as you see. So the eagles really are an example of deus ex machina, for good or ill.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

And something else I remember: Where the hell did those eagles come from at the end? I do recall one saving Gandalf from the top of that tower. But they have not been seen since! Did 'ol white robes have them on speed dial?! I;m sure this is explained in the books as well, but there was zilch in the movie (could have taken time from the end sequences to explain this in the middle ).

The Eagle issue just as surprising and unexpected in the book. There is no mention of them or even thier possible involvement until on the Field of Cormallen durring the battle before the Black Gate we get.

As if to his eyes some sudden vision had been given, Gandolf stirred; and he turned, looking back north where skies were pale and clear. Then he lifted his hands and clried in a loud voice ringing above the din: The Eagles are coming! And many voices answered crying: The Eagles are coming! The hosts of Modor looked up and wondered what this sign might mean.

There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the decendants of old Thorondor , who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-earth was young. Behind them in long swift lines came all their vassals from the northern mountains, speeding on a gathering wind. Straight down upon the Nazgul they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs, and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale.

There is no direct reason given in the book but it might be possible to infer from a few other things.

The wizard and the eagle-lord appeared to know one another slightly, and even be on friendly terms. As a matter of fact Gandolf, who had often been in the mountains, had once rendered a service to the eagles and healed their lord from an arrow-wound.

...

The Lord of the Eagles would not take them anywhere near where men lived. "They would shoot at us with their great bows of yew," he said, "for they would think think we were after their sheep. and at other times they would be right. No! we are glad to cheat goblins of their sport, and glad to repay our thanks to you, but we will not risk ourselves for dwarves in the southward plains."

...

And so they parted. And though the lord of the eagles became in after days the King of All Birds and wore a golden crown, and his fifteen chieftains golden collars (made of the gold that the dwarves gave them), Bilbo never saw them again - except high and far off in the battle of Five Armies.

...

The Eagles had long had suspicion of the goblins' mustering; from their watchfulness the movements in the mountains could not be altogether hid. So they too gathered in great numbers, under the Great Eagle of the Misty Mountains; and at length smelling battle from afar they had come speeding down the gale in the nick of time.

...

"Where are the Eagles?" he asked Gandolf that evening, as he lay wrapped in many warm blankets.

"Some are on the hunt," said the wizard, "but most have gone back to their eyries. They would not stay here, and departed with the firts light of morning. Dain has crowned their chief with gold, and sworn friendship with them for ever."

As is seen in the Hobbit the Eagles never liked Goblins/Orcs and enjoyed "cheating goblins of their sport." While they did not trust men, their hatred of the Goblins led them to join with Men, Elves, and Dwarves when it came time to fight a large Goblin army. This also brought a freindship between at least the Dwarves and the Eagles.

February 17 Gwaihir bears Gandolf to Lorien.

...

March 11 Gollum visits Shelob, but seeing Frodo asleep nearly repents. Denethor sends Faramir to Osgiliath. Aragorn reaches Linhir and crosses into Lebennin. Eastern Rohan is invaded from the north. First Assault on Lorien.

March 12 Gollum leads Frodo into Shelob's lair. Faramir retreats to the Causeway Forts. Theoden camps under Minrimmon. Aragorn drives the enemy towards Pelargir. The Ents defeat the invaders of Rohan.
...

March 15 In the early hours the Witch-king breaks the Gates of the City. Denethor burns himself on a pyre. The horns of the Rohirrim are heard at cockcrow. Battle of the Pelennor. Theoden is slain. Aragorn raises the standard of Arwen. Frodo and Samwise escape and begin their journey north along the Morgai. Battle under the trees in Mirkwood; Thranduil repels the forces of Dol Guldur. Second assault on Lorien.

...

March 17 Battle of Dale. King Brand and King Dain Ironfoot fall. Many Dwarves and Men take refuge in Erebor and are besieged. Shagrat brings Frodo's cloak, mail-shirt, and sword to Barad-dur.

...

March 22 The dreadful nightfall. Frodo and Samwise leave the road and turn south to Mount Doom. Third assault on Lorien.

...

March 25 The Host is surrounded on the Slag-hills. Frodo and Samwise reach the Sammath Naur. Gollum seizes the Ring and falls into the Cracks of Doom. Downfall of Barad-dur and passing of Sauron.

Emphasis mine.

Once again with the Eagles bearing Gandolf to Lorien it is not surprising that they are aware of the imminent danger facing Middle earth. Being freinds with both the Dwarves and Elves (at least a likely freindship with them) and already demonstrating their hatred of Orcs in the Hobbit and willingness to help men out when it comes to killing Orcs, it is not unlikely to expect their help in the great battle against Sauron. There is pleny of activy going on across middle earth at the same time as seen with attacks on Dale, Mirkwood, Rohan, and three on Lorien. It would also not be surprising if the Eagles were also involved in one or more of these battles. Now the last assault on Lorien is just 3 days before the assault on the Black Gate and if the Eagles were helping Lorien then it would be reasonable to expect Galladrial (who still has her magic and the mirror) to then send the Eagles onto the Black Gate.

So there we have the long version from the books with both direct and indirect reasons for the Eagles unexpected involvement in the final battle. So as for the film version we are given none of this. But the problem becomes their involvement is in the book and it does make really cool visual scenes so including them becomes neccesary. Should Jackson have done something to prepare us, probably but so much is already cut and this is a hard thing to show in the film. A nod is given to this with the inclusion of the moth but I think it is forgivable like many other things to leave undisclosed. The whole Eagle thing can/should be properly resolved if we get a film version of the Hobbit.

 

[Merlion]

There isn't anything here about ending the story, although in ancient drama that certainly is what happened. The current meaning is more broad, as you see. So the eagles really are an example of deus ex machina, for good or ill.

Thanks for clearing that up Buttercup

 

[Gnarlo]

Finally got to watch the movie yesterday afternoon, leaving in about an hour for viewing number two

Loved it, other than for feeling a bit rushed and disjointed. The EE will cure that, as it did for TTT. Only three parts bugged me a bit:

1) Never pictured Dunharrow looking like Bluffside. The image of it at the top of the cliff with the zigzagging path climbing up to it just looked to me like "how exotic a location can we make this appear." Of course, I drag out my books this morning and read the arrival of Theoden to Dunharrow, and Pippin describes it exactly as looking like that, so oh well It won't bother me now the next time I see it.

This also brings up a related musing of whether PJ has/JRRT had acrophobia. I've lost count in the trilogy of how many times we are standing on a precipice/tower/cliff looking down into the depths. Reminds me a bit of a critic I read remarking how Lovecraft seemed to be scared of fish and fishy smells.

2) Denethor's run. I would have liked to have seen Denethor's death scene be a little bit more of him leaping back into the flames rather than Gandalf knocking him into the pyre, but that's a matter of taste. What did bother me was then watching him do a 300 yard dash engulfed in flames; running that far drenched in oil and looking like Jonny Torch? Jarred me out of my belief in the movie for a few seconds.

3) Did the scene with Frodo lying in bed and the Fellowship coming into his bedroom remind anyone else of the Wizard of Oz? Especially with it being color-graded into that golden sepia-like tone; I was expecting them to come in dressed in overalls and straw hats. A friend of mine got the same impression, he said he was waiting for Toto to come running in and jump on the bed at any second.

Minor niggles though. To be bothered by less than 1% of 3 1/2 hours entertainment in a conclusion to a movie you've been waiting 26 years for is a stellar performance in my book. Bravo!

 

[Buttercup]

Thanks for clearing that up Buttercup

No problem, Merlion.