[SPOILERS] THE Return of the King Thread

[Mark]

THAT was the goods...

 

[Shadowdancer]

The think that really upset me about the Roger Ebert review was this:

. . . although the half-elf Arwen (Liv Tyler) here makes a crucial decision -- to renounce her elfin immortality in order to marry Aragorn (Viggo Mortensen) -- there is none of the weight or significance in her decision that we feel, for example, when an angel decides to become human in "Wings of Desire."

The reason her decision doesn't carry the same weight or significance is that, in "Wings of Desire," the angel's decision was THE WHOLE POINT OF THE FREAKIN' MOVIE! Arwen's decision is just a subplot of a much, much larger story. It's not fair to compare the two.

And I wasn't aware that Arwen was a half-elf.

 

[Celtavian]

Needed to be four movies...

The Return of the King was the greatest visual spectacle in the history of cinema and I will be surprised if it will be surpassed anytime soon. It blows away the Matrix and Star Wars for special effects and eye candy.

That being said, I must confess that Return of the King was choppy in terms of plot and character development. Certain parts weren't edited particularly well such as Eowyn killing the Witchking and then speaking with Theoden, way too short to capture the emotional impact I was hoping to feel when seeing it. Not to mention the horrendous changes to Theoden's character that made him seem less noble and loveable than the Theoden I know from the books. Luckily, PJ gave him back quite a bit of his nobility in the Return of the King, but still not quite enough to make him the character Tolkien made him.

Some parts were corny and contrived, like when Aragorn waited for the orc army to surround him before charging and when Frodo fell for Gollum's simple tricks. Sam's and Frodo's friendship would never be so easily sundered and Aragorn definitely wouldn't have been that poor a battle commander.

I really feel the majority of the blame isn't so much on PJ for certain poorly done parts. I think it is because he needed one more film to do the series proper. Hindsight is 20/20 and there is no changing things now.

Overall, the film is very good. Much too light on emotional weight for my tastes, but the battle scenes are absolutely awe-inspiring. I wanted to run an epic D&D war when I watched the charge of the Rohirrim. Just unbelievable.

It was a good end to the trilogy, though I know it will still leave me disatisfied when compared to the books. Far too many changes to parts of the story that I hold dear.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

The think that really upset me about the Roger Ebert review was this:


The reason her decision doesn't carry the same weight or significance is that, in "Wings of Desire," the angel's decision was THE WHOLE POINT OF THE FREAKIN' MOVIE! Arwen's decision is just a subplot of a much, much larger story. It's not fair to compare the two.

And I wasn't aware that Arwen was a half-elf.

Both of her parents are Half-Elves, Elron and.... I can't remember the name. So she's the half-elven child of two half elves.

 

[The Sigil]

Both of her parents are Half-Elves, Elron and.... I can't remember the name. So she's the half-elven child of two half elves.

Not quite... here's the full nasty family tree...

Elrond married Celebrian, who was the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn (and thus is a full-blooded elf). Thus, Arwen's mother's heritage is easy... 100% Elven.

Elrond is trickier... Elros and Elrond were brothers. They were called "half-elven" and were the sons of Earendil and Elwing, both of whom are also called half-elves.

Earendil was the son of Tuor, one of the great men in the first age, and Idril, an elf. Thus, Earendil is fully half-elven.

Elwing was the daughter of Dior and Nimloth. Dior, whom you may or may not recognize as the son of Beren and Luthien, was clearly half-elven, as Beren and Luthien were human and elf, respectively. Nimloth was (as far as we can tell) a full-blooded Elf.

That makes Dior half-elven and Nimloth full-elven... so Elwing would be 3/4 elven.

If Elwing is 3/4 elven, and Earendil is 1/2 elven, that makes Elros and Elrond 5/8 elven and 3/8 human.

Elros chose to become human and was the progenitor of the kings of Numenor (if memory serves). This is why the Numenoreans are so long-lived. Elrond, of course, chose to become elvenkind, and was granted immortality.

This makes Arwen 13/16 elf, for those keeping score at home.

This also makes Galadriel Arwen's grandmother. Celebrian was wounded by poison, and had to leave Middle Earth by way of the Gray Havens or die from the poison, which is why she's not around. This also explains Galadriel's keen interest in the Arwen/Aragorn storyline (in FotR:EE and TTT).

Also, if memory serves, there were 37 generations from Elros to Aragorn, making Aragorn and Arwen first cousins 37 times removed.

No, I don't have a life. And I admit, I had to look up Elwing's heritage... http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

Also, look up the Elessar (the gem Arwen gives to Aragorn in the movies) in Lost Tales some time. Neat stuff for PJ to include in the movie... a "throwaway" for those not familiar with ITS story, but a touch that shows how much of Tolkien he kept track of.

--The Sigil

 

[stevelabny]

nice to see the trolls are out.
much more entertaining now.
thanks.

 

[John Crichton]

Not quite... here's the full nasty family tree...

Elrond married Celebrian, who was the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn (and thus is a full-blooded elf). Thus, Arwen's mother's heritage is easy... 100% Elven.

>SNIP<

Also, look up the Elessar (the gem Arwen gives to Aragorn in the movies) in Lost Tales some time. Neat stuff for PJ to include in the movie... a "throwaway" for those not familiar with ITS story, but a touch that shows how much of Tolkien he kept track of.

--The Sigil

Sig, man.

That was very cool. I was wondering about that. And now I know. Very cool.

 

[Negative Zero]

after reading Ebert's review, i'm wondering if the man even has an imagination left. his statements boil down to basically: "it was a very good movie, but because it was a fantasy movie and not something that could happen in real life, it can't be taken seriously. only an adolescent could find it emotionally moving."

yes, i am paraphrasing quite a bit, but that's essentially what he's saying. which, IMO is, of course, utter malarky. the ideas presented in the story are universal. good vs evil, friendship, loyalty, duty, destiny and so on. saying that they're not as poignant because it's a fantasy movie is like saying, an image isn't as good because it's painted and not a photograph.

i really think that after a lifetime of watching movies for a living, the man has no imagination left.

~NegZ

 

[Numion]

Ya know, I have one quirky gripe.

Gollum bit off the last joint of the index finger on Frodo's left hand. And I admit, Frodo put the ring, strangely, on his index finger.

But the last joint? Who wears a ring on the LAST JOINT of a finger, much less the index finger?

No one. But you understand that the ring could move to the next joint, if gollum took the whole finger into his mouth. Then he starts chewing, the ring moves (because its bigger than the finger), frodo tries to pull his finger out, gollum gets only the tip bit of, but he's got the ring.

Thats too much analysis, but try it for yourself

The key is that frodo was pulling his finger obviously out of gollums mouth, and thus resulted in this scene.

 

[Alcareru]

Amazing. Simply amazing.
'Nuff said.

I guess I can put away my fears of a trilogy let down. Pretty posotive reviews from the media both geek and mainstream. Slate and Salon likedit and they seem to be pretty critical on alot of recent movies.

I am relieved, but now with the trilogy concluded, I no longer have what has become a holiday tradition. <sigh>