Spontaneous casting base classes in Complete Divine and balance with sorcerer

[billd91]

OK, I just started reading Complete Divine and was a little surprised by the alternative base classes in there. I'm not surprised they all have spontaneous casting, but I am surprised at some of their additional powers and wonder just how well they balance.
With respect to the shugenja, I don't have any worries. The constraints on their spell choices and elemental abilites don't seem too far out there, especially considering the only other significant departure from the sorcerer's build is 4 skill points instead of 2.
What I'm wondering about are the Favored Soul and the Spirit Shaman. Compared to the sorcerer, both get a better BAB, both have at least 1 more good save (in the case of the Favored Soul all 3 saves are good), and both have numerous level-gained class powers.
What I wonder about is this: Are the sorcerer's spell choices that much better than the Favored Soul's and Spirit Shaman's available choices (especially with the Spirit Shaman picking his known spells each day) to justify giving the two divine classes that many more goodies?
Should the sorcerer be considered the gold-standard for balance of a spontaneous casting class given it's length of history and play-testing in 3rd edition D&D games? Or are we finding it's under-powered and these new base classes are reflecting that impression?

 

[Psion]

The sorcerer shows up as a poor cousin in numerous comparisons. It's the first tool someone trying to prove something overpowered whips out. After a while, it's not too hard to see where the problem really is.

 

[Crothian]

Agreed, the Sorcerer is just underpowered.

 

[Felon]

It's not just a matter of comparing sorcerers to favored souls and spirit shamen. Divine casters in general have better hit die, BAB, saves, and class features.

You wonder if the sorcerer's spell list is really better than the ones for the favored soul and spirit shaman? Yes. As a DM, I don't worry that a cleric's going to cast a single spell that makes an encounter entirely one-sided. Only arcane magic can do that.

The sorc is dull as dirt though. I wouldn't mind seeing the familiar abilities pawned off for something more puissant. And like a lot of folks, I don't think any class should be stuck with d4 hit dice.

 

[Plane Sailing]

You wonder if the sorcerer's spell list is really better than the ones for the favored soul and spirit shaman? Yes. As a DM, I don't worry that a cleric's going to cast a single spell that makes an encounter entirely one-sided. Only arcane magic can do that.

Anti-life shell?

Destruction?

Harm?

 

[Plane Sailing]

Favoured Soul? the degree to which this class looks utterly overpowered is something I find frankly unbelievable. I can't imagine what the designer thought were the balancing features of this class.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

IMO, The Favoured Soul is basically a self-buffing melee machine. I don't know if they have changed it from the MiniHB version, but the balancing factors were, IIRC (when compared to cleric):

- no Heavy Armor proficiency
- 2 spellcasting characteristics (WIS for slots, CHA for DC's)
- no Turn undead

The Favoured Soul is geared for combat, and that's how he's most effective, IMO. Use buff spells on himself and wade into melee. If you try to play one that uses offensive spells, you have to split your stats too much to be effective.

AR

 

[ruleslawyer]

In general, the designers' viewpoint appears to be akin to Felon's: That the divine spell lists are generally inferior to the sor/wiz spell list. That's why, for example, the cleric, who gets d8 HD, medium BAB, two good saves, decent weapon proficiencies, casting in heavy armor, turning, and an extra spell per level, is considered "balanced" with the wizard, who gets d4 HD, one good save, poor BAB, no armor proficiency or casting ability, and five bonus feats. By analogy, it thus makes sense that a divine spontaneous caster would have the advantages of better HD, BAB, and saves compared to the sorcerer.

Of course, I happen to be of the school that says that divine spells aren't necessarily inferior to arcane spells, especially when you throw in the domain spell lists. That means I'd also like a weaker cleric, but there you go...

 

[Felon]

Anti-life shell?
Destruction?
Harm?

Really, at the point where we get into rattling off individual spells, I don't think you really can expect divine casting to win. Not in offense, defense, or transportation anyway. Probably not divination either. When a favored soul can turn on improved invisibility, then fly and levitate into the air and start lobbing artillery, I'll start to worry. When he can teleport out of inescapable situations, or bypass wildernes treks in the blink of an eye, I'll break a sweat. In the meantime, it's the arcanist that's giving me headaches.

Favoured Soul? the degree to which this class looks utterly overpowered is something I find frankly unbelievable. I can't imagine what the designer thought were the balancing features of this class.

I suspect he thought he was making a worthy counterpart to the cleric, not the sorcerer. Bear in mind, we're not just talking about giving up turn undead and domains. Above and beyond that, clerics can prepare every darn spell a cleric of their level is capable of casting. The favored soul gives up a huge selection, much larger than the gulf between a sorcerer and wizard.

 

[Felon]

Of course, I happen to be of the school that says that divine spells aren't necessarily inferior to arcane spells, especially when you throw in the domain spell lists. That means I'd also like a weaker cleric, but there you go...

I was vocally in this camp for a long time. That's because nobody was playing mages. Then folks started, and lo and behold my troubles began.

Arcanists are the guys who turn D&D into an over-the-top video game. Diviners basically heal, buff, or go melee.