Spontaneous Metamagic Variant

[Li Shenron]

Who would waste a feat on an Empower 1/day useable on your 3rd highest spell level only?

But... as it is in the core rule it's not a complete waste IMHO. It's definitely far better for a sorcerer than for a wizard, but I have played wizards and used a couple of metamagic feats even with the normal option of preparing spells with them and the increased slot level. That option is still available if you want more uses per day of the feat.

 

[Li Shenron]

Something else came to my mind... well it goes to a complete different direction compared to your suggestions, hope you don't mind it's just still relevant to the topic of metamagic for preparation casters.

What if preparation casters (eventually if they don't have the option of spontaneous metamagic) would get a discount on the slot level increase?

Metamagic Preparation Spontaneous
Empower +1 +2
Maximise +2 +3
Quicken +3 +4
Widen +2 +3

But it's more difficult for the +1 metamagic feats, since reducing to +0 would be too much.

Alternatively, what if using mm during preparation would also increase the spell level for free (that would make Heighten necessary only for spontaneous casters)?

Sorry if I am drifting away from your topic it's just that I am not convinced completely by the idea of exactly make metamagic spontaneous for non-spontaneous casters... Some mm feats are useful as many times as you could use them, such as Empower or Heighten for example, but others are useful mostly in emergency situations (Still, Enlarge, Silent), or otherwise they'd be nice to have all the time.

 

[Thanee]

I am not convinced completely by the idea of exactly make metamagic spontaneous for non-spontaneous casters...

Therefore it's a variant. Some people like it, some not. Choose for yourself.

Having played enough wizards until now, I certainly did notice the trend, that metamagic isn't exactly great for them. For the sorcerer they are cool, but the cost is still very high to use them.

And I think fluff-wise, metamagic is just made for wizards, though mechanically it doesn't work well in conjunction with prepared casting.

Do you think sorcerers would not get enough benefit over wizards here (remember, they can now cast without time increase and use Quicken Spell and get more uses per day), or do you just think, that the spontaneous application does not sit right with your mental image of the wizard, regardless of any balance issues?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Li Shenron]

Uff... I'd love to discuss this topic better, but this week I cannot concentrate on even what I'm saying, I always get distracted by this thing getting in the way called "work"

And I think fluff-wise, metamagic is just made for wizards, though mechanically it doesn't work well in conjunction with prepared casting.

This is actually an important point of the discusssion Long ago when talking about AD&D with friends, I imagined that a class called Mage or Wizard should be different from other spellcasters because of some ability of improving spells more or less like metamagic was going to do in 3ed. Then I got used to it being more typical of Sorcerers and now it feels just right to me fluff-wise ( ?) that sorcerers are those who learn a few spells and keep training with them again and again, becoming more versatile in minor changes. But if you would like mm to be more for wizards, that's ok of course

Do you think sorcerers would not get enough benefit over wizards here (remember, they can now cast without time increase and use Quicken Spell and get more uses per day), or do you just think, that the spontaneous application does not sit right with your mental image of the wizard, regardless of any balance issues?

I'll try to disregard my mental image then, I think it'll be more fair

I think sorcerers would still get a huge benefit from not having to increase the slot level. I think being able to cast 2-3 quickened spells or 4-5 empowered spells per day without the slot cost is worth more than a feat, but well it could be a top-of-the-range feat...

But preparation casters also get around their #1 limitation with metamagic, and that's what doesn't please me much. Getting to apply mm spontaneously AND without slot increase is too much IMHO, that's why I suggested to keep it to 1/day at most.

I don't mind the general fact that wizards would get more from the feat compared to sorcerers, that happens all the time for many other feat (and for that reason I wouldn't have minded if you hadn't given more daily uses to sorcerers). I mind the fact that the benefit from a single metamagic feat is huge itself.

Ok, without your variant the benefit is just fine for sorcerer but definitely quite low for wizards, so it's a good point to try improving it. Only that it seems difficult to remove the preparation limit without also removing the slot increase, but both are too much IMO.

It's also a matter of balance between wizard and sorcerer of course... metamagic ease has a role in making the sorcerer more effective and weights on the comparison with the wizard's advantages.

 

[Thanee]

About the mental picture, fluff thing: I think that a magician who studies magic for a lifetime (the wizard) would know how to manipulate spells with the vast understanding coming with that.

Anyways...

Well, the #1 disadvantage of prepared casters, is that they cannot always choose the right spells. This variant will slightly improve it, since they can weigh in the metamagic on those spells, where they need it the most. But they still would have to learn the right spells then, that doesn't change. I don't think this is an over the top advantage, also, as they still need to learn the feats and therefore lose out on something else, which they could have chosen instead.

About the spell level issues, that comes automatically with applying metamagic spontaneously to prepared spells, since it doesn't really work well in any other way, that's why it is replaced with a daily uses limit (which, admittedly, is weaker, but that's the same for every caster and I still don't think it makes metamagic too powerful that way). Of course, the sorcerer shouldn't be at a disadvantage here, so it works the same for both. Note, that this part is the same in the official UA variant!

The main difference to the UA variant are, that sorcerers gain an advantage with the increased number of uses per day, that the "weaker" metamagic feats are improved in the same way compared to the more powerful ones (in the UA variant, every metamagic feat simply has 3 uses per day, which obviously makes the high-power metamagic feats (i.e. Maximize Spell) much more worthwhile than stuff like Still Spell), and that the stacking rule makes multiple metamagic feats more worthwhile. So generally, the above is purely an advantage for the sorcerer over the wizard, if you go from the UA variant.

I think the more reduced number of uses per day (second block in the initial post) is probably more balanced overall, mostly because of the spell slot issues you mentioned.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Technik4]

The big problem with metamagic is, that for prepared casters most of the feats are never worth it (see above explanation), since they can learn higher level spells instead.

What was the above explanation? Anyway, while they can learn higher level spells there is some insurance from a feat like Maximize Spell, you know that you won't accidentally roll poorly and not quite finish someone. Perhaps my views are different since I don't use so much 3rd party or non-core product. Which is why I don't know what Firebrand does

A preparation-based spellcaster does not always choose the right spells as you say, but they can also just leave slots open to prepare a spell later (I believe this takes 15 minutes). Obviously this is not good for combat, but as far as needing the right spell, they can approach what sponataneous casters do already, with a far wider variety of spells.

As far as the variant in UA (which I believe you are partly basing this), that was designed for a system where all casters prepare in the same way right? At least, to my knowledge, there isn't a large distinction between preparation and spontaneous casters.

I can see what you mean about wizards being able to alter spells, after all, they study magic the most, but the nature of their ability to use magic comes from preparing them - I just don't see how metamagic should give them the ability to decide to make a spell stronger *as they cast it* since they have already prepared the spell in a certain manner. A higher level wizard could prepare a stronger fireball, which is a result of having studied magic for so long, but I feel it is the sorcerer who can decide at a moments whim to create the stronger fireball.

I guess I just see the 2 kinds of magic differently, but I hope your variant works out!

Technik

 

[Thanee]

Firebrand is a 5th level version of Fireball, which goes up to 15d6 and allows to place (level) 5-foot bursts all around the battlefield within medium range (I think), each target can be hit only once, of course. Very good spell, but I just used it as an example, since it is similar to Fireball.

In UA there is no distinction between spontaneous and prepared casters, they both get spontaneous metamagic in the same way (no levels added (same as here), maximum level limit in place (same as here), with 3 uses/day). This is bad IMHO, since spontaneous casters should have an advantage here.

There are certainly different ways to see the wizard metamagic fluff. To me, it makes little sense to have the metamagic prepared. It's a level of magical skill, which layers on top of the basic spellcasting and preparation method and does not necessarily have to be included. If it is being prepared, there also could simply be a different spell like empowered Fireball to be researched, so the wizard knows a Fireball and a stronger version of Fireball and chooses which to prepare. But metamagic gives the wizard some sort of control over the basic spell, and I don't see anything inherently wrong fluff-wise, when this is done as part of the spellcasting. There are other decisions, like targeting, which are also done during the casting already.

Well at least that's how I envision it, which does not mean everyone else has to do as well.

It's not important for the balance, but probably interesting to note, nonetheless.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liquidsabre]

I'm with you all the way on this one Thanee.

Core metamagic in it's current form does not provide much incentive to select any of the feats with a +2 or higher slot increase. The problem with core MM is that comparative level metamagic'd spells are just less effective than other spells of equal spell level in damage output and utility. Simple as that.

What the core MM doesn't factor is that with an increase in spell level there is an exponential increase in power. A 9th level spell isn't simply 9 times more powerful than a 1st but is many, many times better than a 1st level spell. The same holds true for a 5th level spell vs a 1st level spell, and so a quickened metamagic spell will never be able to compare in power to a normal 5th level spell.

My only suggestion for handling spontaneous metamagic for spontaneous casters is two-fold:

(1) What immediately comes to mind (besides giving the sorcerer a few bonus metamagic feats, something I instituted at 10th and 20th levels for the class ) is to first, leave the metamagic feats at 3/day across the board. The higher the slot increase for MM feats only serves to limit the MM feat to use with lower level spells and makes it balanced across the levels for all the metamagic feats to make it balanced to leave them all at 3/day.

For example, in one day, with a 9th level wizard, we might see 3 quickened 1st level spells and 3 empowered 3rd level spells. I've found the quicken spells for example to be no more powerful than any of the other metamagic'd spells due to the fact that lower-slot-MM feats may modify higher level spells and the higher-slot-feats only get to modify lower level spells. To my surprise the inherent balance we found was almost elegant, since the more powerful MM feats could only effect the less powerful spells and the less powerful MM feats could effect the more powerful spells.

(2) Upon leaving the MM feats at 3/day each, my best suggestion would be to synergize a sorcerer's selection of metamagic feats such that for each MM feat the sorcerer selects they recieve an extra +1 use/day to use for any of the MM feat(s) they possess. So a spontaneous caster who selects:

Silent Spell
Still Spell
Empower Spell

Would have an extra 3 use/day that they may use on any of the three MM feats they possess, in any order.

A SC with but one MM feat:

Energy Substitution 4/day

and an SC with 5 MM feats:

Silent
Still
Empower
Maximize
Quicken

Would have 3/day for each feat plus 5 more uses/day in any order of the MM feats the SC possesses. Thoughts on this one Thanee?

It's flexible and the SC that is more practiced with metamagic benefits from his/her own mastery of it.

 

[Thanee]

Well, I'm pretty sure that leaving the uses/day at 3 for all feats is such a good idea. Sure the lower spell level is a decent limit already, but we are still talking about a difference between making a spell persistent or still for the same cost (one feat).

There should be some incentive to use the "weaker" feats and I don't think the level difference by itself is enough of that, since the main cost of that difference, the usage of higher level slots, has been removed.

Another problem arises with the +0 level feats, which normally can be used on every spell in a day easily; 3/day seems rather low in comparison.

And while Empower is one of the best feats for its efficiency ("only" +2 levels added), the high power metamagic feats are the ones, that seem to be the best overall (Quicken, for example, is very powerful even with the limit to low level spells; Twin Spell is also fairly powerful and we all know about the power of Persistent Spell, especially if you don't need that 7th level slot to make a 1st level spell persistent then).

Mainly, I'm worried, that this would push the "weaker" metamagic feats even further into the shadows, therefore I came up with the staged number of uses/day to give some incentive to choose those. Also it makes sense, since you have more spells to use them on (more total spell levels), that you can use them more often in a day. This just makes it overall more pleasant, I think.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I generally like the idea of the additional uses per feat, but I'm afraid, this does not aim at the right targets. The idea is to benefit spontaneous casters, all spontaneous casters, not just those who pick up multiple metamagic feats (one way to make that pay off better is the "discount" I speak of above). It should be a benefit to balance all those disadvantages sorcerers have to endure to get their spontaneous casting ability and to cover the "loss" of advantage over the wizard, when they also gain the spontanity in applying metamagic, which, as outlined above, I feel is necessary to make metamagic worthwhile for them.

Bye
Thanee