Spot DC for Attack+Move under Improved Invisibility

[wocky]

One of the players in my campaign is a Pixie operating most of the time under his Improved Invisibility ability. His usual tactic is to shoot an arrow and then move out of the way, which makes me wonder about the Spot DC to pinpoint his location.

- The usual DC to spot an invisible character when it's moving is 20

- When hiding, shooting an arrow and then attempting to hide again (sniping) imposes a -20 penalty to the Hide DC.

Now, imagine the following situation:

- The pixie, while invisible, puts himself in position to strike his foe. He's not noticed.
- In the next turn, he shoots (and strikes the foe) and then moves or flies away.

Q. 1) What's the DC to spot him and pinpoint his location? Is it 20 based on his movement? Is it 0 because of a -20 penalty a-la sniper?

Personally, I think it should be lower than 20, since moving is much less noticeable than attacking and moving. An invisible sniper is still not as noticeable as a visible one... would you say that DC 10 is ok?

Q. 2)What if he attempts to hide after shooting (still invisible)? Does he get a +20 bonus because of moving while invisible and a -20 because of having attacked? It seems unfair, since that'd mean he has no penalty... or should the attacked NPC get a spot check before the attempt to hide?

 

[mikebr99]

One of the players in my campaign is a Pixie operating most of the time under his Improved Invisibility ability. His usual tactic is to shoot an arrow and then move out of the way, which makes me wonder about the Spot DC to pinpoint his location.

- The usual DC to spot an invisible character when it's moving is 20

- When hiding, shooting an arrow and then attempting to hide again (sniping) imposes a -20 penalty to the Hide DC.

Now, imagine the following situation:

- The pixie, while invisible, puts himself in position to strike his foe. He's not noticed.
- In the next turn, he shoots (and strikes the foe) and then moves or flies away.

Q. 1) What's the DC to spot him and pinpoint his location? Is it 20 based on his movement? Is it 0 because of a -20 penalty a-la sniper?

Personally, I think it should be lower than 20, since moving is much less noticeable than attacking and moving. An invisible sniper is still not as noticeable as a visible one... would you say that DC 10 is ok?

Q. 2)What if he attempts to hide after shooting (still invisible)? Does he get a +20 bonus because of moving while invisible and a -20 because of having attacked? It seems unfair, since that'd mean he has no penalty... or should the attacked NPC get a spot check before the attempt to hide?

Hide and Spot are opposed by each other, and everyone has a hide skill modifier, even if it is negative. Invisibility adds +40 to the hide check if you are immobile, +20 if you are moving.

1) The DC to spot the Sniping Pixie would be his hide skill modifier, -20 for sniping, and +20 for Invisible. And he can't move during this, because trying to use the hide skill while sniping, is a move action all on it's own. He could make a 5ft. step however.

2) I think I got this in #1, but please let me know if I didn't.


Mike

 

[The Souljourner]

It's not sniping. Sniping is using the hide skill. The pixie is invisible. There's a big difference. Movement is movement, whether it's firing a bow or skipping to my loo.

Keep in mind, the DC 20 is just to notice there's an invisible guy *somewhere* nearby. You don't know a specific square. I think getting shot in the head with a pixie arrow when you can't see any enemies pretty much negates the need for a spot check to determine that there's an invisible foe nearby. The DC to pick the square of the invisible person - if I remember correctly - is 20 higher than the DC just to notice. So you'd need a DC 40 check to pick the square the pixie is in if he's moving. If you want to give a bonus due to the fact that he's firing projectiles that become visible, ok. But DC 10 is crazy easy.

-The Souljourner

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

That whole DC 20 spot check was in 3.0.

Now invisibility simply adds +40 to hide when immobile, +20 when not immobile. Movement also smacks on a penalty, -5 I think if moving up to normal speed, -20 if running.
So, Pixie base +8 for size, +20 for mobile Imp. Invis., -5 movement during hide check, -20 for sniping.

28-25=+3. The pixie gets a hide modifier of +3. Plus any armor-check penalties and/or bonus's from Dex and Ranks.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

Forgot one thing. Even if the person "spots" the pixie while it is improved invis, they don't know the exact location, they simply know the general area. They have to pinpoint via Scent, Blindsight, Tremorsense, or an opposed listen check where the listener beats the person moving silently by 20.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[Gizzard]

My understanding of the Invisibility section of the SRD is that you can make a Listen or a Spot against an Invisible character. (Since they are free actions, you may be able to do both?)

If you Listen, for instance, there is a table with the DCs in the SRD. If the Invisible creature is "in combat or speaking" the DC is 0. If the creature is "moving at full speed" the DC is "Move Silently check result - 4". I guess its DM's call whether firing a bow is "in combat".

Anyway, the relevant part of the SRD is here:

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/AbilitiesandConditions.rtf

It's pretty thorough, and I just found it a couple months ago myself. ;-)

-- clarification --

The DCs I noted are to "detect". It's +20 to "pinpoint", just like Spot. But you can Listen at ranges greater than 30', and the average DC looks about 20 points lower for Listen, so it seems better.

 

[wocky]

The PHB seems to contradict the DMG (the SRD repeats the DMG text). Note the following:

PHB (p. 309): "An invisible creature gains a +40 bonus on Hide checks if immobile or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if moving. Locating the square an invisible creature occupies requires a Spot check (DC 40 if the creature is immobile, DC 20 if the creature moved during its last turn), modified by the appropriate factors (...)"

DMG (p. 295): "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot Check. The observer gains a hunch that "there's something there" but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. (...) [DC 30 if the creature is holding still, DC 40 if it's completely immobile]. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a spot check."

I don't think I'm wrong to understand "locating the square an invisible creature occupies" as "pinpointing", so according to the PHB the DC to pinpoint a moving invisible creature is 20, but it's 40 according to the DMG. Anyway, I'm not sure an "invisible, attacking, moving" creature should get the same DC as an "invisible, moving" creature. Even worse if the pixie is taking a full round action to shoot three or four arrows... his location should be fairly easy to pinpoint.