Spring Attack + Move Action?

[Particle_Man]

Which of the following does Spring Attack allow someone with a speed of 30 to do?

a) Use the spring attack feat to, say, move 15', attack, move back 15', and that is all for the round.

or

b) Use the spring attack feat to, say, move 15', attack, move back 15', and then have a move action left over (perhaps to move 30' more, perhaps to do some other move action).

or

c) Use the spring attack feat to, say, move 15', attack, move back 15', and then have a move action left over (except that it cannot be used to actually move, so you could sheathe a weapon or something like that but that is all).

 

[Hypersmurf]

As written in 3.5? It's b (or, arguably, c), but I suspect that's an error, and I run it as a.

The problem is that the definition of a standard action changed between 3E and 3.5, but the Spring Attack feat doesn't reflect the change.

In 3E, a standard action allowed you to move your speed and [do something]. You could substitute moving your speed for a move-equivalent action. The Spring Attack feat allowed you to move before and after your attack, as long as the total distance moved didn't exceed your speed, when you took the Attack action (a standard action) with a melee weapon. Notice that the Attack action, as a standard action, already allowed you to move your speed; the feat changed how you could distribute that movement.

In 3.5, a standard action allows you to [do something]. You can also, in an average round, take a move action, but that's something entirely separate to the standard action. The Spring Attack feat allows you to move before and after your attack, as long as the total distance moved doesn't exceed your speed, when you take the Attack action (a standard action) with a melee weapon.

Let's look at the surprise round, for example. I am limited to a standard action, so I take the Attack action with a melee weapon. The feat allows me to move before and after my attack, as long as the total distance moved doesn't exceed my speed. Without the feat, I couldn't move more than 5 feet (unless I made a restricted charge).

Let's look at an average round. I take the Attack action (a standard action) with a melee weapon - Spring Attack allows me to move before and after my attack, as long as the total distance moved doesn't exceed my speed. At the conclusion of that standard action, I still have a move action remaining; I didn't use a move action to move my speed, I used the movement granted by the Spring Attack feat. Whether I can use that move action to move further depends on whether one interprets "total distance" as "total distance moved when taking the Attack action", or "total distance moved in the round".

The point is - in 3E, the movement you used during a Spring Attack was the movement already associated with any standard action. In 3.5, where a standard action has no associated movement, the movement you use in a Spring Attack (as written) comes from the feat. Instead of redistributing movement, it's creating movement.

I consider this to be an accidental oversight in the revision, and I require the expenditure of a Move action on a Spring Attack to provide that movement... but strictly as written in the published 3.5 PHB, the feat creates movement.

-Hyp.

 

[Bad Paper]

Wow, Hypersmurf gave a far deeper explanation than I even suspected existed. I never studied the feat close enough in either 3.0 or 3.5 to notice. I not only run it as choice A, but I also believe that choice A is the intent.

You are still using two actions in the round: a move, and a standard. Spring Attack just allows you to insert the standard (as long as it's an attack) into the move somewhere.

Thus, in your example, the move action is "move 15' forward and 15' back." The standard action is "attack that sucker." Because you have SA, you can insert the attack in the middle. As a bonus, you do not draw an AoO from the target.

Compare this with Flyby Attack and Improved Flyby Attack, which are wonky. Flyby Attack allows you to put any standard action in the middle of the move, but does not provide the protection from AoOs. Improved Flyby Attack provides that protection, but only if that standard action is an attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wow, Hypersmurf gave a far deeper explanation than I even suspected existed. I never studied the feat close enough in either 3.0 or 3.5 to notice. I not only run it as choice A, but I also believe that choice A is the intent.

I run it as choice A because I believe it's the intent, but I don't think it's what they wrote.

As written, in 3.5, I'm pretty sure that if you take the attack action with a melee weapon in the surprise round, the Spring Attack feat would allow you to move before and after the attack... despite you not having a move action available.

-Hyp.

 

[Goblyn]

Let's look at an average round. I take the Attack action (a standard action) with a melee weapon - Spring Attack allows me to move before and after my attack, as long as the total distance moved doesn't exceed my speed. At the conclusion of that standard action, I still have a move action remaining; I didn't use a move action to move my speed, I used the movement granted by the Spring Attack feat. Whether I can use that move action to move further depends on whether one interprets "total distance" as "total distance moved when taking the Attack action", or "total distance moved in the round".

-Hyp.

massive snippage here; hope this is not thus out of context. Bold is mine.

The bold statement is an incorrect statement of the spring attack feat, at least to my PHB.

The sentence is: "When using the attack actionwith a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

That's the feat using the character's available move action for that round. I see no created movement ... and then reach the same interpretation you use in play.

As written, in 3.5, I'm pretty sure that if you take the attack action with a melee weapon in the surprise round, the Spring Attack feat would allow you to move before and after the attack... despite you not having a move action available.

-Hyp.

I disagree with this, however, as the wording of the feat describes a character using his move action in that round. A surprise round has no move action which thus cannot be split.

 

[irdeggman]

massive snippage here; hope this is not thus out of context. Bold is mine.

The bold statement is an incorrect statement of the spring attack feat, at least to my PHB.

The sentence is: "When using the attack actionwith a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

That's the feat using the character's available move action for that round. I see no created movement ... and then reach the same interpretation you use in play.



I disagree with this, however, as the wording of the feat describes a character using his move action in that round. A surprise round has no move action which thus cannot be split.

Ahh and yet another "issue" with WotC making changes in subsequent printings without errata.

The SRD has the following:

SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

Special: A fighter may select Spring Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

The first printing says:

SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL]
You are trained in fast melee attacks and fancy footwork.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

But the Special Edition has:

Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can split your move action in that round in order to move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an atack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. Yu can't use this feat if yuo are wearing heavy armor. You must move at least 5 feet before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.

I think we need to start a list of these issues and send them to WotC to incorporate into an errata.

 

[Goblyn]

Ahh and yet another "issue" with WotC making changes in subsequent printings without errata.

...

I think we need to start a list of these issues and send them to WotC to incorporate into an errata.

All I can can say to that is ... d'oh.

 

[pawsplay]

If you went with b), I believe another 30' move is not possible, because the feat restricts the "total distance" before and after your move.

However, I believe that's a poor reading of an ambiguously written feat. I believe the feat is intended to give you a move action before and after the attack, but both move actions must be moves.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The bold statement is an incorrect statement of the spring attack feat, at least to my PHB.

I'm glad irdeggman posted the clip from the Special Edition PHB, because I was looking at my own PHB and trying to figure out a nice way to call you a liar

Interesting. I hate stealth errata.

Do we have a word from WotC on which is definitive, in cases like this?

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

I'm glad irdeggman posted the clip from the Special Edition PHB, because I was looking at my own PHB and trying to figure out a nice way to call you a liar

Interesting. I hate stealth errata.

Do we have a word from WotC on which is definitive, in cases like this?

-Hyp.

IIRC it was the most recently published item, but I could be mistaken {that might have been in more stealth errata ).

Sort of like the how the differences between 1st and 2nd printings work (oh wait WotC has done before too haven't they?).