[Spycraft] and the 'fu, part 2

[Kannik]

Pan Asian Collective in hand, I make my Martial Artist. A pretty simple martial artist, one who is a Bagua and Xing Yi practitioner. But I have some nagging doubts, both about how I seem to have filled my feats up to 20th level all to easily (and that's without weapon feats), and about the MA class' "power" vis-a-vis the Soldier. Disclaimer: I have not yet played this character in any combat yet. But.

It seems the Soldier has some pretty significant advantages over the MA.

At level 11, with armour/helmet, the Soldier with his bennies, has a defence of 6 (2 armour, 2 bonus, 2 cover), DR2 and his armour atop that. An MA character will have a defence of 9 (10, sidestep feat), but no DR, and if he wears armour only has a defence of 2.

For a few feats, the soldier can pick up a rifle, get weapon focus, rapid shot, a scope, matched ammunition, targeting lenses, special ammunition, and be plunking away for 4d4+3 damage at long range. Soldier gets weapon spec atop of that.

The Martial Artist has to get in close (not always that difficult for the superspy, of course), and is doing 1d8+1.5str, assuming they've used their feats to get 5 basic fighting styles, 5 style adept, and are using punching basics.

Of course, the MA does have some very nice abilities -- his initiative especially (lower base than the soldier, but the bonus from the life of discipline), certaily combining the X basics (and later X mastery) abilities together can be very nice, as can be the reach, etc. And dodge a bullet each round, woohoo! (if you can manage the reflex save) But for the most part those feats are still limited in how many are useful per round, and since so many are required as prereqs, you're basically using a lot of feats up. (and where are the Qigong feats? }

Anyway, before I start rambling -- has anyone else played a MA here from PAC, and am I off my rocker, with vision clouded, or am I onto something? I'm not thinking there needs to be some massive increase to the class -- the soldier is the ultimate fighting machine (with guns, and knives...), but a martial artist is a fearsome thing to behold in the spy movies. S'more bonus feats, and/or gaining stances for free, or getting 5 style adept/etc for free when the appropriate 5 basic styles are taken... maybe more defence... and maybe more flexibility, such as having Wuxia being a 'ploy' (so you gain more ploy choices), and/or having ploys being able to be used as feat choices too, or the like.

Now I am rambling. }

Awaiting thoughts,

Kannik

 

[Corinth]

Why is your Martial Artist fighting unarmed when he's got all those weapon proficiencies just waiting there for him to employ?

 

[Lugh]

The Martial Artist has a few inherent advantages over the gun bunny.

First, the gun bunny is very hard on BP. They generally use up all of their own, and some of the party pool. The Martial Artist, on the other hand, doesn't actually have to spend a single BP to be effective. This is handy for a party in general.

Second, the Martial Artist is always prepared. It's a serious challenge to infiltrate a high society party with a sniper rifle and a flak vest. Likewise, it's tricky to say the least to get pistols into an airport. But, the MA doesn't have to worry about security. They can't confiscate his body, after all.

Third, the MA can be much more stealthy in combat. Gunshots, even suppressed, can attract attention. They also leave evidence behind. A knee to the groin/trip/sharp twist to the neck can take out a target without alerting anyone else.


As for a straight-up comparison of damage-dealing, the gun bunny is always going to come out ahead. That's why swords replaced fists as preferred weapons in society, and guns replaced swords. However, properly played, the MA is a much more subtle, and tactical, combatant. Don't discount those 5' move abilities. They not only effectively allow a MA to threaten an entire room, they allow the MA to place their opponents where they want them. Similarly, with wuxia, the MA can move in and out of combat quickly (I saw a build using Quick Use (Jump) and Surge of Speed in which an MA jumped into combat, hit twice, then jumped back out of range).

If you are not a very tactically-minded player, and prefer very straightforward "I attack, how much damage do I do?" you are going to prefer the gun bunny. If, on the other hand, you enjoy little tricks in combat, the MA is likely more your style.

 

[Kannik]

If you are not a very tactically-minded player, and prefer very straightforward "I attack, how much damage do I do?" you are going to prefer the gun bunny. If, on the other hand, you enjoy little tricks in combat, the MA is likely more your style.

Oh, I was never looking to equal the gun bunny in pure damage output (burst fire, anyone?), and I'm not looking to play someone sans tactics (in the other spycraft game I'm in, I am the gunbunny of the group (kinda, since I'm a wheelman) and tactics is what saves our asses), I am just concerned that as a whole, a martial artist may be somewhat lesser (even playing it smart and in the area of defence). In this campaign, we don't even have a gun bunny yet (it's just me and the snoop so far ), so getting in close isn't a problem. Maybe I'm just annoyed that to get 'drunken stance' to represent the Bagua stepping, and 'tiger stance' to simulate the power of the Xing Yi strikes, I have to take kicking basics -- of which neither style really employ. } Nor do I want to have to emulate X style just to be effective by taking Y, Y, and Y feats...

Insofar as weapons, well, I will be carrying around a (Chinese) broadsword, but unless I tote around a Guan Do, I won't be doing as much as a 9mm. (which strikes me as a bit odd, but...) } Though I do agree on BP, I've got reams of them left.

But as I've said, I haven't actually played at the levels where I have all the feats (whether appropriate or not). If it is felt that they are fine, then I'll wait and see (this'll be my second spycraft char, and first to use any unarmed feats).

Kannik

 

[Lugh]

In a gritty spy game, the martial artist will definitely win out, as most adversaries won't be carrying anything larger than a handgun, maybe a SMG. In a superspy game, where stealth is still key, the martial artist breaks even. An AK-47 will clear a room faster, but really doesn't fit in genre that well. If you fall into a paramilitary (or outright military) game, the martial artist will probably fall behind, as raw potential for dealing and withstanding damage outweighs subtlety.

Of course, I've also seen people claim to have martial artist builds capable of dealing well over a hundred points of damage in a round. I've never actually seen the builds, just the claims, so I'm still not 100% sure the character is legal. But, the potential is there.

As for the X stance having Y basics as a prereq, and not being able to build a given style that way, you'll have to take that up with Morg. All I know about martial arts I learned from watching Jackie Chan and Jet Li. So I don't even recognize style names, let alone know how to properly model them. I do know that Morg went to pretty extensive effort to make sure that most of the major styles could be effectively modelled in something like eight feats.

 

[Kannik]

As for the X stance having Y basics as a prereq, and not being able to build a given style that way, you'll have to take that up with Morg. All I know about martial arts I learned from watching Jackie Chan and Jet Li. So I don't even recognize style names, let alone know how to properly model them. I do know that Morg went to pretty extensive effort to make sure that most of the major styles could be effectively modelled in something like eight feats.

Thinking about it some more, if you ignore the 'names' of the effects, it becomes a bit easier in some cases. Kicking Basics for Drunken Stance makes some sense: certainly the 5' step before attack can (stumble forward, semi-lunge as part of the attack), and the attack 2 people could make some sense (just hitting two people), though neither is a kick, really.

I think if they had left it more generic, or instead came up with a system of greater flexibility, in a HERO-system kind of way, things would have been easier to make/see/fit in/etc. Of course, that could break the normal d20/Feat way of doing things }.

I've seen a suggested system where every rank you took in the 'martial arts' skill gave you an ability. Or maybe allow the martial artist some added flexibility in chosing the Named Abilities and subsequent feat requriements.

Kannik

 

[Lugh]

I would be curious to see if anyone could come up with a more flexible, less generic system that a) works, b) is still d20, and c) is not an absolute nightmare for GC's like me who DON'T have martial arts training.

The fundamental problem with the "take a rank, pick a maneuver" system is that it can lead to very distorted martial arts styles, if not watched. For instance, taking Death Blow after specializing solely in throws. "Ah," you say, "but that can be fixed easily with prerequisites." At this point, I invite you to toy with the system. I'd be willing to wager that you would end up with something that is the equivalent of the feat system. Or, that radically departs from d20. Leaving it up to GC discretion puts a LOT of pressure on GC's who have no discretion in this area.

Now, I'm not saying it CAN'T be done. I'd be willing to bet that someone out there has a martial arts/HKAT genre game that has a more sophisticated system. But, I'd also bet that it takes up a lot more of the book than a chain of feats does, and Spycraft couldn't afford that.

 

[Kannik]

The fundamental problem with the "take a rank, pick a maneuver" system is that it can lead to very distorted martial arts styles, if not watched. For instance, taking Death Blow after specializing solely in throws. "Ah," you say, "but that can be fixed easily with prerequisites." At this point, I invite you to toy with the system. I'd be willing to wager that you would end up with something that is the equivalent of the feat system. Or, that radically departs from d20. Leaving it up to GC discretion puts a LOT of pressure on GC's who have no discretion in this area.

Well, for the Death Blow, one could argue that you are throwing the person in such a way as to increase the chance of them breaking their neck -- if you don't know how to fall, being thrown can be quite damaging. }:>

But I don't deny that any other system (vs the Feat system in place) is fraught with pitfalls of its own. I really do like the idea of the stuff each feat gives you -- for the most part they go well together. Sometimes the names could be changed (X attack effect needn't necessarily be a Y attack) for better genericness, but that's incidental. I think the problem lies in some of the prereqes later in the feat tree (early-midway into it).

What may be devised could very well be very feat-like, or more likely very 'class like', where certain classes (the Martial Artist being one, with the Ploy ability) get to pick Z ability at levels A, B and C. Giving something very rough off the top of my head, break down abilities/maneuvers into Basic, Advanced and Master classes. At certain levels/ranks you can pick a Basic ability; get higher rank levels you can pick an Advanced or two Basic abilities, higher still you can pick a Master or two Advanced abilities. Then, certain feats (such as Five Style adept, etc) can instead have as a prereq so many ranks in Martial Arts, and maybe some other of the 'esoteric' feats.

If you want to keep it in the realm of feats (and making a skill that allows for feat-equivalent bonuses is counter to the intent of the system), then each time you pick the Martial Arts feat, think of it as 2 ranks of the system described above.

Again, rough ideas, top of the head, don't guarantee anything works. } When I get a chance I'll see what I can do to work it into something, and if that is worthwhile or not.

Of course, then one tries to throw weapons into the mix... eep. }

Kannik