Spycraft vs. d20 Modern

[talien]

The Terminator. Why not? He's simply a construct using modern weapons... I could do that right out of the book.

*cough*Terminator: Future Fate*coughcough*

 

[jonrog1]

Having used, and gutted for my own various homebrews, both sytems, I'll toss a tie.

But I WILL weigh in on the superscience/magic discussion, as I've done pulp adaptations and a low-sci-fi tech adaptation. I don't think it's completely unfair to fault D20Modern for not having superscience or tech FX system, because that's "modern" and superscience is "future." The whole reason its "super
science is because it's NOT future -- it bends the laws of reality/does funky stuff TODAY. Magic is an archaic tradition of bending the rules of reality. I can't have a tech version?

Also, as some people haven't read SPYCRAFT, what we refer to as "supercience" in the base book really is no more than moderately high-tech gadgets. For my pulp game, I actually wound up using the SPYCRAFT character classes for their heroic natures, but adapted a D20 Modern spell-level equivalent gadget system for the "Superscience".

Which is to say - mix and match. ALthough I throw in a good word for SPYCRAFT, because of the average 1 splatbook/three month rate of truly, TRULY quality work. A lot of those ideas can actually be used in D20 Modern quite nicely.

Let there be no squabbling among the true believers, let us worship the OGL TOGETHER!

Ahem.

 

[Henry]

Let there be no squabbling among the true believers, let us worship the OGL TOGETHER!

Ohhhhm.... letusworshiptheno-name-because-of-copyright-infringement gooooodddd... ohhhmmmm....)

 

[Lugh]

I can do Die Hard, GI Joe, and the A-Team, right out of the book, never looked at James Bond, so I couldn't say, though I doubt it.
The Predator uses.... uhmmm.... Futuristic alien gear.... No... I don't think D20 MODERN should be required to do that...
I could shoehorn Mission Impossible in, by making Ethan Hunt an Epic Level character.
The Terminator. Why not? He's simply a construct using modern weapons... I could do that right out of the book.
I don't have any clue what VR5 is, so I really can't say... Though based on your other examples, I would venture a guess that it's a very specific thing.
Likewise with the Prisoner, I don't even know what media that's from.

So.. I can do everything in the Predator, except the Yautja, itself (does Spycraft stat that critter out?) and his gear, though I can pretty easily do it with a little creativity. I'm fairly certain that Spycraft doesn't have the Yautja's gear, either, and that (likewise) you would have to use a bit of creativity. While I'm not intimately familiar with Spycraft, I think I can safely assume you can't open the book to the Predator section, then turn to the Die Hard section, and then to the A-Team section, ending it in the Mission Impossible section... I sort of doubt that AEG bought all those licenses.

Damn, and here I went and promised myself I wasn't going to feed this fire. But, I feel obligated to point out that, actually, Spycraft does have all of the Yautja's gear, at least from the first movie (can't recall off-hand what all was used in Predator 2, and never read the comics). The "invisibility" suit and the thermal vision are in the basic book. The gun can be built with masterwork modifications from the Modern Arms Guide, and a little flavor text (technically, Spycraft doesn't have laser guns, but they do have guns that make you go boom).

And, um, you can easily do the other movies with Spycraft. Except for Murdock (what the heck were his specialties, anyway?), all the other A-Team members fall neatly into the core classes. Die Hard is used as a specific example in at least one case (and, really, can easily be done with ANY modern product. It's all style, minimal mechanics). And MI is a no-brainer. It's dead in the center of Spycraft's genre.

Of course, Spycraft does have two glaring omissions in terms of rules-sets for alternate campaigns. They don't have robots. And, up until Stargate is released, they don't have rules for handling aliens.

 

[Psion]

FWIW,

C. Baize, I think you are being more than a little sensitive. I think most of what woodelf says is perfectly fair and accurate, though I would agree the final analysis of who the "advatage" lies with depends largely upon perspective. But is seem to me that only having played d20 modern, you are quick to judge and a little defensive. Whatever your preference, Spycraft does have its strengths.

The issue of whether or not you should hold d20 modern accountable for lack of "superscience" support seems a little petty to me... and smartingly familiar to the petty arguments over oh so tragically shattered expectations of AU not having raise dead...

I have played both and will continue to play both in the future. There is naturally some competition, but for most purposes, their stengths and weaknesses are apparent and deciding which to use for a given situation would be a simple determination based on those strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Voneth]

The issue of whether or not you should hold d20 modern accountable for lack of "superscience" support seems a little petty to me... and smartingly familiar to the petty arguments over oh so tragically shattered expectations of AU not having raise dead...

Nah, my world didn't end when there wasn't enough superscience in d20 Modern, but I wouldn't call it petty when there were 4 example settings and it seems that we'll see the 2 magic ones done first with Agents of Psi using a psi system that by defaults assumes the use of magic (since there was little change from the D&D version and that is what the PsiHB designers said was their design goal.)

On one hand, I don't blame WotC, they knew Urban Arcana would sell, and with Angel still out there, Shadow Chasers will sell. After that, SF in RPGs is a lot more chancey.

On the other hand, it seems that compared to a lot of other gamers, I seem to have a broader view of what a Modern genre is.

While I'm not intimately familiar with Spycraft, … ending it in the Mission Impossible section

You lack of intimacy show, the default for even the core Spycraft game is Mission Impossible

A-Team section

There are days I swear SC main classes were based off the A-Team. They even have a “face man.” Though they do have a “Wheelman” compared to a “Pilot”

the Die Hard section

Pretty much a solo game in SC. The interesting thing would be to make it believable that regular cop could take on all those guys. Oh, wait, that’s SC default.

So.. I can do everything in the Predator, except the Yautja, itself (does Spycraft stat that critter out?) and his gear, though I can pretty easily do it with a little creativity.

Budget Points, Gadget Points, invisibly outfit, and Chemical Monster
All you need is the “latex face mask” (describe the critter as an alien) and your set. The only real big complaint some SC fans have is that there is too much esoteric stuff in the Series Archer campaign book. Which is why AEG made the core book much more “realistic.”

I sort of doubt that AEG bought all those licenses.

This comment lost me. WotC didn’t buy any 10th Kingdom license or Buffy license (Eden Studios snagged that one and doing quite well for it). Those movie were mentioned as examples of what could be done with a dash of “superscience” compared to magic in a modern setting. Either you are not understanding what superscience could be, or you just threw that out as a straw man vote against Spycraft.

Without “superscience” (which is basically the science version of modern magic) you can’t get around to:
Termors
SG-1
Some X-Files (alien hybrid babies)
First Wave
Darwin’s Radio (book)
Etc …
Basically where the veneer of the world looks like the one outside your window.

For Science Fiction:
Earth Final Conflict
Traveller
Star Wars
Fifth Element
Darwin’s Children (book)
Basically where the science has completely changed life as we know it, where “ray guns” and “rocket ships” are the norm

More importantly... I really no longer care... You dig Spycraft.
Cool.

I dig D20 Modern.
Cool.

Uhhh, I was more talking about how d20Modern lacks half the genres it promised to serve by a lack of “superscience” and an over focus on magic. And that Spycraft nabs me because sadly enough Spycraft was trying to be an espionage-only game and it ends up being a strong contender against a more generic system.

I assume by the “I really no longer care” you are bowing out of the thread, just when I was hoping to get my point across. :rollseyes: “Welcome to life on the Internet, Von”

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Trying to win an argument on the Internet is like being a race where the finish line is the edge of a cliff. You might win, but you stupid for participating in the first place

 

[D.Shaffer]

And, um, you can easily do the other movies with Spycraft. Except for Murdock (what the heck were his specialties, anyway?), all the other A-Team members fall neatly into the core classes.

Actually, I believe it's been out right stated by one of the designers that the A-team was the basis for most of the classes there. There's an old A-team in Spycraft thread out there somewhere. (And Murdock would be a Wheelman, probably with the Ace prestige class.)

 

[woodelf]

Without “superscience” (which is basically the science version of modern magic) you can’t get around to:
Termors
SG-1
Some X-Files (alien hybrid babies)
First Wave
Darwin’s Radio (book)
Etc …
Basically where the veneer of the world looks like the one outside your window.

Just to nitpick...

Assuming that's a typo, and you meant "Tremors", i'd actually argue that's one that either game would do just fine--stat up the worms, and the rest is realistic. Most modern horror is that way, or has outright mystical/magical elements. While much (most?) of modern espionage, military, and action-adventure has superscience elements.

Basically, the dividing line, IMHO, is in what the PCs are capable of. If the PCs are never going to "get under the hood", it doesn't matter if there's a system at all, much less that it be well-tailored for the (sub-)genre in question. But for anything the PCs are supposed to have control over, then the system has to (1) work, and (2) have at least a non-conflicting flavor--ideally it'll have a tailored flavor for the genre. So, something like Kolchak the Night Stalker will work with pretty much any system that supports modern settings with an appropriate lethality level. But Forever Knight or Buffy the Vampire Slayer requires a good working system for supernatural critters and magical spells, 'cause the protagonists use them all the time. Things like X-Files are in the gray area in between.

On the tech front, you have things like Mission: Impossible or James Bond, where a working gadget/superscience/tech system is important, 'cause it's one of the core elements of the genre and the PC's capabilities. And you have, say, Tremors, where it doesn't matter at all, other than perhaps having an explanation for the existence of the worms. Most modern stuff that isn't overtly magical falls in the gray area, IMHO: things like Dark Angel, where a good tech system won't hurt, but mostly the PCs either don't use the tech, or don't understand it, so verisimillitude is easier to maintain.

Heck, much of pseudo-modern scifi falls into that area, too: things like V and Independence Day mostly just need a reasonable veneer of tech-rather-than-magic for the aliens, because, from the PCs' POV, it's just an obstacle.