SpyCraft vs Wheel of Time

[Havoc]

How dare I? Apples vs oranges...
It seems to me that many reviews give unexpectedly low or high scores. It seems common, for instance, to give low score to wizards. But this is just a statement, let me elaborate.
First, if I selected spycraft, it's because it got a perfect score. That being said, I like AEG products - Rogugan is a gem.

Art
Ah, Wheel of Time RPG... the worst illustration in the book deserves a 4/5. Full color pages, glossy paper. These Aes Sedai girls I fell in love with on first sight...
Spycraft.. seen worse. Black and white. Let's say it's adequate. But the book got a perfect score... why?
the nicest Wizards books set the 4,5 mark (everything is perfectible) for art and I am afraid as, as far as art goes, they are unequaled (Rokugan books coming close).

Systems
Wheel of time RPG define its own classes and prestige classes; for me, that's definitely how things should be done; players new to the setting are helped into a role that fits.
Wheel of time defines a new magic system that tries to emeulates the magic in the novel with a good degree of success, and that is a very good alternative to the standard magic system of D&D.
Spycraft makes good uses of feats - adding little chunks of rules progressively to the game - for car chases. A definite plus.
Spycraft defines its own classes but... wait... which class should I use for my thug npc? or for that car reseller? Doctor? Innocent passer-by? There are only agent classes in that book; a glaring omission. But the book got a perfect score.
D&D is not my favoured system but as far as D&D goes, the player handbook sets the 4,5 mark; it has succeeded in making an old favourite with a plethora of problems into a new game; all these rules are explained clearly. That's a remarkable feat of rules engineering to me.

Wheel of time RPG 4/5 - I will use it, I like to browse it
Spycraft RPG 3/5 - Nice try

As you have understand, this is not an RPG review, I am probably not a good reviewer. However, reviewers do not need to be good game designers.
I confess I bought Spycraft just after reading reviews here and I was dissapointed. It's not a big deal, it is not that bad, and I own hundreds of RPG books, but ...

 

[Chain Lightning]

I agree with your review. I looked through my friend's Spycraft and I recently bought WoT. Wheel of Time is a very nice book. This coming from a guy who's not a Jordan fanatic. Only thing I didn't like was the cover. Darrel K. Sweet has become an out dated old shool guy. He did awesome covers when doing the Thomas Covenant trilogy. But man oh man, the WoT covers are horrible. I guess he's become the artistic spokesman for WoT unfortunately. I heard Jordan had said somewhere that he was displeased with the art too.

Art aside, the game is pretty cool for playing inside Jordan's setting.

As far as playing spy/espionage style rpgs I think I would rather use Hero System or something similar.

My opinions.

 

[Havoc]

I agree with your review.

Well, my opinion on WoT and Spycraft are genuine but that was just an example. What do you thing about the ratings of these products?
And the ratings given to WoTC in general??

Compare

Spycraft: 4.80 Superb
Wheel of Time: 4.00 Good

And about wizards products in general:
Wizards: 3.72 Average
... Average???? of course they are the Corporate Evil Empire (tm), but this seems hardly fair to me. D&D, CoC, Wheel of Time, Star Wars, magazines, free web content, the OGL, all the creative talent, real editors, real artists ought to count for something.

Take Malhavoc Press for instance* (4.50)... sure the products seem interesting (not read them myself) but they are judged on the contents alone since the reviews are based on pdf... how can that compare to the nicely finished WoTC products, I do not know.
I am not saying here that art and layout are more important than the "stuff", but that is certainly where the differences in production values are the most apparent between WoTC and the rest.

--
* I love the web site and the always insightful opinions there.

 

[Geoff Watson]

There seems to be a double standard. The slightest mistake in a WotC product gets them slammed, but another company can get away with 'mechanics are a bit dodgy, but good for a third party product' and get 5/5.

Geoff.

 

[Tsyr]

I both agree and disagree with some of your points.

I agree that far to many people rush to give the next "Wizard kicker" product a perfect score, and tend to overlook flaws in said product they would ream in a WotC product. This stinks, IMHO. But it's still better (Somewhat) than the DnD reception on RPG.net, soooo...

But take for example this quote:

Take Malhavoc Press for instance* (4.50)... sure the products seem interesting (not read them myself) but they are judged on the contents alone since the reviews are based on pdf... how can that compare to the nicely finished WoTC products, I do not know.

Not having read them, you really shouldn't offer an opinion in this case. Malhavoc products have great layout (Text size vs page size, margins, borders, clearly seperated content, etc.), and good art. Not colorr art (most of it), but I've never really thought colorr art was _THAT_ great of a thing. I wouldn't mark a book down for not having colour, that is to say. IMHO, the BoEM2 deserves a 4.5 at least, and I wouldn't quarral if it got a 5. It really _IS_ a good product.

I don't think WotC has any monopoly on good. In fact, I generaly think WotC art sucks, for example. Sure, from a technical standpoint its decent, but I just don't like it. Too strange for my tastes. I generaly think that Sov Press and Atlas both have better art (as a whole) than WotC, for example, even if it's not colour.

 

[Psion]

How dare I? Apples vs oranges...
It seems to me that many reviews give unexpectedly low or high scores. It seems common, for instance, to give low score to wizards.

I can see examples where this is true... but I don't think you picked a good example.

First, if I selected spycraft, it's because it got a perfect score.

No, it doesn't. It has received perfect score, but the overally tally is not perfect. There is a product higher in the standings than Spycraft, and it is by Wizards -- the Manual of the Planes. Much like Spycraft, the manual of the planes inspired.

The Wheel of Time, while a very pretty book, did not inspire me in the same way. It seems mostly like rewarmed D&D to me.

I have not done a review, but were I to do one, I would probably give it a 4. It just didn't give me the same "wow" factor spycraft did. That, for me, is the difference between a 4 and a 5. A 4 is a book with good ideas and material. A 5 must have that PLUS be inspirational.

While somewhat interesting, I found WoT to be a difficult read. I always felt like I was trudging through details. I really think you have to be a Jordan fan to appeciate this book... which is sort of the point, but analyzed on its own merits, I think a "4" is about right.

Art
(...)
Spycraft.. seen worse. Black and white. Let's say it's adequate. But the book got a perfect score... why?

Because art deserves to be looked at, but not heavily weighted IMO. A game is first and foremost a game.

Otherwise I agree with you. WoT is simply a gorgeous book. That's why it got nominated for an ENnie in the interior art category, and Spycraft was not.

In fact, back when I used to cross post my reviews to RPGnet, I gave Spycraft a 3 on style. But when translating it to ENWorld, I am definitely a advocate of "substance over style":

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6122.html

Wheel of time defines a new magic system that tries to emeulates the magic in the novel with a good degree of success, and that is a very good alternative to the standard magic system of D&D.

Eh, it'll do. Nothing special.

Spycraft makes good uses of feats - adding little chunks of rules progressively to the game - for car chases. A definite plus.
Spycraft defines its own classes but... wait... which class should I use for my thug npc?

This is covered in the book.

or for that car reseller?

If he's good at it, faceman. Otherwise, fixer.

Doctor?

Tough call, but I think I'd have to say snoop.

Innocent passer-by?

"6 hp"

There are only agent classes in that book; a glaring omission.

Pfui. Some NPC classes would round it out nicely, but the agent classes are actually pretty flexible. What would you chuck from the book to put revised NPC classes in?

That said, you can use the core Expert class almost as-is by giving it a defense score.

Take Malhavoc Press for instance* (4.50)... sure the products seem interesting (not read them myself) but they are judged on the contents alone since the reviews are based on pdf... how can that compare to the nicely finished WoTC products, I do not know.

1) You do know that Malhavoc is printing all their stuff as well, right?
2) I do think that on the average, Malhavoc is better than Wizards in a lot of important areas. BoEM and ITCK are just as important staples in my game as any wizards splat book (and much more so that DotF and S&S.) (Though I will say I am not as impressed by BoEM II as most people are.)

Further, not having seen the books, I daresay you are rather swift to judge. The first PDF had merely okay layout and crappy art. But by the second book, Monte had brought on some real artists. The more recent books have a crisp, eye-pleasing layout as well.


I think you are trying to make your case by picking two data points that you think supports it. In some ways, I agree with you. Some people out there snipe some WotC products unfairly. But your specific examples I must refute, and yes, Virginia, there are publishers out there who are churning out stuff at least on par with WotC.

 

[drquestion]

Originally posted by Havoc
Wizards: 3.72 Average
... Average???? of course they are the Corporate Evil Empire (tm), but this seems hardly fair to me. D&D, CoC, Wheel of Time, Star Wars, magazines, free web content, the OGL, all the creative talent, real editors, real artists ought to count for something.

Take Malhavoc Press for instance* (4.50)... sure the products seem interesting (not read them myself) but they are judged on the contents alone since the reviews are based on pdf... how can that compare to the nicely finished WoTC products, I do not know.
I am not saying here that art and layout are more important than the "stuff", but that is certainly where the differences in production values are the most apparent between WoTC and the rest.

First off, if you're going to take production values into account, you're also going to have to consider price. Sure, most of the WotC stuff is prettier than the Malhavoc stuff, but most of it also costs upwards of $20, whereas you can get a Malhavoc .pdf for $5-$7.

Also, you have to consider that Wizards has produced a lot of stuff that's simply not that great. Their major hardcover books usually get very good scores, but they've also put out crap like the hero builder's guidebook, the diablo II book, etc.

Malhavoc, on the other hand, has put out only a small number of products, all of which have been very well received.

The truth is, smaller d20 publishers can put out material that's equal or superior to WotC's. I think that Mongoose's Quintessential series is generally more interesting than WoTC's classbooks, and I think that the Scarred Lands is a much more compelling campaign setting than Forgotten Realms. Oathbound has much better art than anything WoTC has put out.

None of this means that WotC produces inferior products, just than they can be outdone by their competitors.

drquestion

 

[Psion]

Oathbound has much better art than anything WoTC has put out.

I think I've gotta take the other side on this one.

I am rather pleased that Stephanie Law once again graced the pages of an RPG product. Her watercolors are fantastic.

But I find Morasch's stuff (which takes up way too much of Oathbound) to look garish and amatuer. Considered by itself, I'd call it worse than anything WotC has put out. And that is saying a lot, because I really dislike the work of Cramer and Roach.

 

[Havoc]

Re: Re: SpyCraft vs Wheel of Time

1) You do know that Malhavoc is printing all their stuff as well, right?
2) I do think that on the average, Malhavoc is better than Wizards in a lot of important areas. BoEM and ITCK are just as important staples in my game as any wizards splat book (and much more so that DotF and S&S.) (Though I will say I am not as impressed by BoEM II as most people are.)

Further, not having seen the books, I daresay you are rather swift to judge. The first PDF had merely okay layout and crappy art. But by the second book, Monte had brought on some real artists. The more recent books have a crisp, eye-pleasing layout as well.

I would like to add something about my seemingly swift judgement; I expressed myself poorly in that case.
I make no judgement at all about malhavoc press product quality (or lack thereof, I don't know); I was just trying to say that, even if art is not that important for me, if some book (from malhavoc or some other publisher) gets a 5, that means a *perfect* score and thus the art needs to be perfect as well. Since Malhavoc books were reviewed as pdf, they were the targets of my misplaced flames.

 

[Havoc]

First off, if you're going to take production values into account, you're also going to have to consider price. Sure, most of the WotC stuff is prettier than the Malhavoc stuff, but most of it also costs upwards of $20, whereas you can get a Malhavoc .pdf for $5-$7.

Hum I disagree...
It's kind of saying that you cannot say you like a porshe over a nissan because the porsche is more expensive.

The value for price thing can of course be considered, but that is another thing... and another part of a review.

The truth is, smaller d20 publishers can put out material that's equal or superior to WotC's. I think that Mongoose's Quintessential series is generally more interesting than WoTC's classbooks, and I think that the Scarred Lands is a much more compelling campaign setting than Forgotten Realms. Oathbound has much better art than anything WoTC has put out.

None of this means that WotC produces inferior products, just than they can be outdone by their competitors.

drquestion [/B]

I love mongoose class books; I've bought all of them (well must still buy the last two). They are full of ideas but
the art is just bad (see for instance the proportions of bodies), and the editing... just by reading it once there are mistakes.

Of course I have to agree with you, Wizards can be outdone but I think that until now, it is a rather rare occurence and yet, the reviews they get do not reflect that.