SpyCraft vs Wheel of Time

[Eosin the Red]

I am going to try to put a few words into Havocs mouth since few seem to get the point he is making (some of you obviously do but others still seem stuck with the examples).

If WotC produced Product X and Johnniesnewgame.com did exactly the same product, the WotC product would likely have a lower review score than Johnnies. The review would be lower based soley on the premise that is was produced by WotC.

It works the same way at RPG.net if you are a monkey with a typewriter in your closet and you pour your soul into a product and vanity press ten copies, damn your ratings will soar. If it is d20 anything specifically but massed produced in general, it will stink, no matter what the quality of the product. They tend to be the gaming coinsurers and could not consider something as blasé and common as a mass produced game worth their time. Sorta like the critics who bash Diehard cause it does not have a plot or Terminator for the cliched acting by Arnold.

Side Note: Psion - normally I tend to agree with alot of your opinions (It must be the Hero roots) but to dismiss the channeling system as less than inventive and orignal does not really seem up to par for you. I don't think the system deserves a 5 but it does deserve respect for the things it does well.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

I don't think the system deserves a 5 but it does deserve respect for the things it does well.

Psion said if he was to review it; he would give it a 4/5.
Doesn't that show respect for the things it does well?

If WotC produced Product X and Johnniesnewgame.com did exactly the same product, the WotC product would likely have a lower review score than Johnnies. The review would be lower based soley on the premise that is was produced by WotC.

That is not true.

As I and others have said- it depends on the product.

Should WOTC be held to a higher standard then JNG? Yes.

They are the center of the d&d universe- they set the standard.

If they fail to do that, then they deserve to be called for it.

Does that mean that WOTC must do better then all d20 companies? Of course not, but they should be setting a high bar to be surpassed.

FD

 

[Tsyr]

That is not true.

Sorry Furn... I normaly agree with you, but not in this case. It's not really a problem here so much (though it still is), but try RPG.net... strange little games with awkward rules systems and lots of typos and errors can still get a decent score, just because they are "non-mainstream" games... d20 products as a whole, and WotC products in specific, tend to get reamed on even the slightest defect.

Should WotC be held to a higher standard? Yes.

That doesn't mean that small-press groups should be held to a low standard just because they aren't WotC.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Sorry Furn...

I apologize. I should have been more clear- I don't think that is true here. The attitude does exist in some reviewers, but not in all of them. We, thankfully, get a wide variety of reviews that the corporate-bashers don't hold a major sway over a possible buyers decision.

I agree the anti-d&d bias on rpg.net is staggering, but I am not concerned with them.

That doesn't mean that small-press groups should be held to a low standard just because they aren't WotC.

Agreed. I read Eosin's remarks as a concern of tearing down WOTC in spite of them, not building up d20 companies in spite of WOTC.

FD

 

[Desdichado]

I am not complaining, not really.
Just saying, to make a long story short: WoTC gets unfairly poor reviews, more often than not, especially when compared to other products that are far from perfect.
Theirs are not perfect maybe, but they are the reference.

It seems to me that it's only true they get treated unfairly if they truly do make the best books. Since I don't always agree with that, I'm not sure I agree with your main idea that WotC gets treated unfairly in reviews. Certainly, I don't believe the example you selected is a case of WotC being treated unfairly -- most of the reviews of Spycraft and the Wheel of Time both are very clear on what criteria were used to come up with the numerical score.

 

[Havoc]

I am going to try to put a few words into Havocs mouth since few seem to get the point he is making (some of you obviously do but others still seem stuck with the examples).

Well, thanks

Side Note: Psion - normally I tend to agree with alot of your opinions (It must be the Hero roots) but to dismiss the channeling system as less than inventive and orignal does not really seem up to par for you. I don't think the system deserves a 5 but it does deserve respect for the things it does well.

I think that I should have taken other examples and that I selected WoT because I fell in love with the channeling system and these Aes Sedai girlies

 

[Havoc]

It seems to me that it's only true they get treated unfairly if they truly do make the best books. Since I don't always agree with that, I'm not sure I agree with your main idea that WotC gets treated unfairly in reviews. Certainly, I don't believe the example you selected is a case of WotC being treated unfairly -- most of the reviews of Spycraft and the Wheel of Time both are very clear on what criteria were used to come up with the numerical score.

"class" books then?

 

[Psion]

"class" books then?

You might not get too clear of a picture of how that really looked if you go over the reviews. I axed many of the three-sentence rants of some of the classbooks.

 

[Eosin the Red]

That is not true.

As I and others have said- it depends on the product.

Should WOTC be held to a higher standard then JNG? Yes.

They are the center of the d&d universe- they set the standard.

If they fail to do that, then they deserve to be called for it.

Does that mean that WOTC must do better then all d20 companies? Of course not, but they should be setting a high bar to be surpassed.

Furn,

walk me through this again.

It is not true that wizards would get a lower mark. Then they should be held to a higher standard. Those two statements are in opposition. They either have the same ratings and standards as everyone else or they do not?

How do you think it can work both ways?

On another note - I would agree with the statement of 4/5, that is what I would give it. My bones with Psion were in the statement -

Eh, it'll do. Nothing special.

Not in the overall rating. I think you are reading too much into my statement. I did not say "Psion and the other reviews at enworld dog WotC." I said that in equal products they would get a lower score - You stated yourself that they should be held to a higher standard. Hence, they would be rated lower for exactly the same product soley because they are WotC and not judged on the same standards.

We really don't have a disagreement here. Nor was I knocking anyone (except elitist snobs that have forgotten how to enjoy something for what it is).

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Furn,

walk me through this again.

It is not true that wizards would get a lower mark. Then they should be held to a higher standard. Those two statements are in opposition. They either have the same ratings and standards as everyone else or they do not?

How do you think it can work both ways?

Heh, I was not very clear in that post at all.

I don't think it is true that if WOTC and a d20 company put out the same product- that WOTC would get a lower mark because they are WOTC. (Here at ENWorld)

But, since WOTC and a d20 company can not offer the same product- they can only offer similar products.

In such a case, WOTC should be held to a higher standard.

What does that mean?

1) I expect them to not have rules mishaps.
2) I expect the editing and testing of the product to be solid.

#1 is not an option for negotiation. WOTC is d&d- the rules need to be solid.

#2 I am not typically concerned with this, but from WOTC- I expect not to have to do extra work I may have to do with a d20 publisher.

Does that mean you give a d20 company a pass on the same two?

Of course not, but WOTC should be more sharply criticized for failing in those 2.

Why? Because they are d&d. If they don't hold a high level of expectation, then other companies will have nothing to reach towards or compare their products with. The buyer will also have no standard to compare a product to when considering it for purchase.

Yes, I know. They are human, but they have the resources available that most d20 companies do not. With such resources, you catch human mistakes before they reach the public.

FD