Squeezing and the Half-Ogre PC

[BLACKDIRGE]

As one of my players found at last night in our first 3.5 game, his half-ogre fighter was severely handicapped when trying to fight in a dungeon with 5 ft. wide corridors. I think the squeezing rules make a lot of sense, finally limiting large creatures like ogres when fighting in spaces that should be too small for them to menuever properly.

So my question is, do those of you who think the half-ogre is overpowered at +1 ECL, think the new space and squeezing rules balance the half-ogre at its presently written ECL? Since a lot of adventures feature dungeons and many dungeons feature five foot wide corridors I can see the squeezing rules coming in to play a lot. I know they will in my game.

Dirge

 

[Spatzimaus]

No. Sorry, I'd love this to be a major balancing factor, but it just isn't to me. See, part of the problem is that it's REALLY dependent on your DM. If your campaign follows the classic formula (dungeon, 10' x 10' room with a lone orc guarding a chest, and so on) it's a serious drawback, of course, but the last time my party actually went into an actual dungeon with 5' corridors, I was level 5. Just because it's in the name of the game doesn't mean that's all there is, after all.

We do a lot of outdoor adventures, stuff in the Underdark, hopping around the planes, even a few tavern brawls. But not many places that this rule would be a serious drawback. Okay, so it might be a decent drawback going through doors, or if I'm inside a small house, but in the vast majority of the places we fight it's not really a problem.
(Also remember that in big public buildings, especially castles, many interior hallways might be 10' wide)

The bigger problem is just how much room they take up in general, but even that can work to your advantage.

If you want to balance the Half-Ogre, you need more than this, in my opinion.

 

[Fedifensor]

Hmm. I've house ruled the half-ogre as ECL +2. For those that think the half-ogre is still tough for a +1 ECL, what do you think about +2 with the new squeezing rules?

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Hmm. I've house ruled the half-ogre as ECL +2. For those that think the half-ogre is still tough for a +1 ECL, what do you think about +2 with the new squeezing rules?

I've never had an issue with half-ogre's at ECL+1. Its never been a problem in the games I have run. So far I've dealt with three half-ogre PCs, a monk, a psychic warrior, and now a fighter. None of them have been overpowered or game breaking and in fact I think the players were a bit dissapointed with their choice of race after seeing them in action.

So I think that the squeezing rules just make a stronger case for only a +1 ECL. Now of course everyone's games are different, I tend to use a lot of modules from dungeon which generally feature those pesky 5' corridors. If your game features a lot of wide open spaces then the squeezing rules are not as much of a factor. But I think many would agree that being large is not as good as it was in 3.0 and that IMO is a significant drawback for the half-ogre.

Dirge

 

[DM2]

I've never had an issue with half-ogre's at ECL+1. Its never been a problem in the games I have run. So far I've dealt with three half-ogre PCs, a monk, a psychic warrior, and now a fighter. None of them have been overpowered or game breaking and in fact I think the players were a bit dissapointed with their choice of race after seeing them in action.

Why were they dissapointed? Unless they built their characters in very suboptimal manners, they should have been absolute power houses...

+1 ECL for the half-ogre is a gift when you are building melee fighting warriors.

DM2

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Why were they dissapointed? Unless they built their characters in very suboptimal manners, they should have been absolute power houses...

+1 ECL for the half-ogre is a gift when you are building melee fighting warriors.

DM2

They were unable to do much beyond fight. With low int scored from the -2 INT they had few skill points and were unable to partake effectively in many "Non-Combat encounters" which are prevelant in my game. Also at low levels you would be surprised how much the loss of a single hit die can really hurt you. The half-ogre fighter is the most obvious target for intelligent enemies and he would often find himself subject to an initial volley of arrows or javelins (they were fighting hobgoblins) that left him in the negatives.

The squeezing rules just added mopre frustration to the mix, and the player of the half-ogre said at one point that if he had known about the squeezing rules he would have chosen a different race.

Another problem half-ogre pc's have encountered is the lack of magical armor and equpiment made for their size. I of course try to make up this with the occasional ogre barbarian or troll fighter but the simple fact is that most of the equpiment they want is worn by medium characters.

So to sum up, yes half-ogres are tough and strong but in my experience they have enough draw backs that the ecl +1 is sufficient. Your games may vary of course, but i cant see the half-ogre as a viable racial choice over ECL +2.

Dirge

 

[Spatzimaus]

Originally posted by BLACKDIRGE
They were unable to do much beyond fight. With low int scored from the -2 INT they had few skill points and were unable to partake effectively in many "Non-Combat encounters" which are prevelant in my game.

-2 INT is hardly crippling. Ask any Half-Orc. Note how many skill points the classes your players chose gave: 4+INT, 2+INT, 2+INT. If that Fighter had added a few levels of Rogue or Ranger, he'd have been just great for the non-combat stuff. Even Barbarian would have been an improvement. Instead, two of the three picked classes with really low skill points, in a campaign where non-combat encounters are common. Bad, bad decision.

The other problem is that so many combat-oriented people use INT as a dump stat that they hit the minimum of 1/level. I played a Half-Ogre with an INT of 12. Everyone assumed I'd be stupid, just because my race had an INT penalty, but I was smarter than half the party. And, those extra skill points really came in handy. As a Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter, I had plenty of skill points to go around.

Also at low levels you would be surprised how much the loss of a single hit die can really hurt you.

Not nearly enough to make up for the natural armor, reach, etc. At level 2 (class level 1), MAYBE it's enough of a drawback, but once you have even two or three class levels under your belt the additional stat bonuses and such more than make up for it. Put a level 6 Human Fighter side-by-side with a level 5 Half-Ogre Fighter. Compare their attack bonuses, HPs, saves, ACs, and damage bonuses. Even without the benefits of reach, the Half-Ogre wins that comparison easily.

Also, the "lost HD" thing is common to all +ECL races. It's hardly unique to Half-Ogres. People WILL play races like Drow, even with these lost HD, simply because they get such great bonuses.

The half-ogre fighter is the most obvious target for intelligent enemies and he would often find himself subject to an initial volley of arrows or javelins (they were fighting hobgoblins) that left him in the negatives.

At low levels, if the enemies concentrate on ANY one player they can do the same thing. Smart enemies might focus on the spellcaster in the back (who has less HP than even a level 1 Half-Ogre) instead. So, the question becomes, why were they all targeting the Half-Ogre?

Another problem half-ogre pc's have encountered is the lack of magical armor and equpiment made for their size.

Armor isn't much of a balance issue for the Monks, Psychic Warriors, Rogues, Rangers, Bards, etc. In 3.0, where magic armor resized and weapon sizes were absolute, it was a non-issue altogether. In 3.5, it might be more of an issue, but only if your players wear only looted items. Custom-made stuff can be whatever size you want.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Originally posted by BLACKDIRGE
They were unable to do much beyond fight. With low int scored from the -2 INT they had few skill points and were unable to partake effectively in many "Non-Combat encounters" which are prevelant in my game.

-2 INT is hardly crippling. Ask any Half-Orc. Note how many skill points the classes your players chose gave: 4+INT, 2+INT, 2+INT. If that Fighter had added a few levels of Rogue or Ranger, he'd have been just great for the non-combat stuff. Even Barbarian would have been an improvement. Instead, two of the three picked classes with really low skill points, in a campaign where non-combat encounters are common. Bad, bad decision.

The other problem is that so many combat-oriented people use INT as a dump stat that they hit the minimum of 1/level. I played a Half-Ogre with an INT of 12. Everyone assumed I'd be stupid, just because my race had an INT penalty, but I was smarter than half the party. And, those extra skill points really came in handy. As a Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter, I had plenty of skill points to go around.

Also at low levels you would be surprised how much the loss of a single hit die can really hurt you.

Not nearly enough to make up for the natural armor, reach, etc. At level 2 (class level 1), MAYBE it's enough of a drawback, but once you have even two or three class levels under your belt the additional stat bonuses and such more than make up for it. Put a level 6 Human Fighter side-by-side with a level 5 Half-Ogre Fighter. Compare their attack bonuses, HPs, saves, ACs, and damage bonuses. Even without the benefits of reach, the Half-Ogre wins that comparison easily.

Also, the "lost HD" thing is common to all +ECL races. It's hardly unique to Half-Ogres. People WILL play races like Drow, even with these lost HD, simply because they get such great bonuses.

The half-ogre fighter is the most obvious target for intelligent enemies and he would often find himself subject to an initial volley of arrows or javelins (they were fighting hobgoblins) that left him in the negatives.

At low levels, if the enemies concentrate on ANY one player they can do the same thing. Smart enemies might focus on the spellcaster in the back (who has less HP than even a level 1 Half-Ogre) instead. So, the question becomes, why were they all targeting the Half-Ogre?

Another problem half-ogre pc's have encountered is the lack of magical armor and equpiment made for their size.

Armor isn't much of a balance issue for the Monks, Psychic Warriors, Rogues, Rangers, Bards, etc. In 3.0, where magic armor resized and weapon sizes were absolute, it was a non-issue altogether. In 3.5, it might be more of an issue, but only if your players wear only looted items. Custom-made stuff can be whatever size you want.

All good points, Spatzimaus. But I contend that the factors I listed do make a noticable impact on the half ogre PCs in my campiagn. Now those factors might not make much of a difference in game played in a different style and the half-ogres in your game may warrant a higher ECL.

I certainly don't gang up on PCs, but the party mentioned before lacked a potent spellcaster and the Half-Ogre was absolutely the biggest threat to the hobgoblins the party was facing at the time.

So what ECL do you place half-ogres at? I still cant see them as a viable choise beyond ECL +2.

Dirge

 

[G.A. Donis]

I'm playing a Half-Ogre fighter in my wife's latest campaign. Everybody started out at 3rd level so he's a 2nd level fighter. So far we noticed that he tends to dish out some pretty massive damage for the level. Of course he's swinging a Huge, Mercurial Great Sword It also appears that he's limited by his HPs. To get "big" enough creatures to challenge him (yet not kill the other PCs outright) our opponents have been doing some pretty big damage. Just this weekend he was almost killed by a goblin on a warg with Ride By Attack and a Heavy Lance. After the goblin stuck for about 2/3 of his HPs he chased it down and almost got dropped by some orcs with great axes when he charged between two of them to get at the goblin. He is not the sharpest tool in the shed D: Of course once he caught up to them, both the goblin and warg were quickly turned into chunky salsa and the surviving orcs fled.

So far it seems that the +1 ECL might be a little low, but we are all working together to try and get some balance into the combats. At least it's easy assigning skills at level up. He gets 1 every level.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

So far it seems that the +1 ECL might be a little low, but we are all working together to try and get some balance into the combats. At least it's easy assigning skills at level up. He gets 1 every level.

In a homebrew game we were playing in one time, my friend was playing a race that wasn't quite an ogre, but was basically your big-but-dumb stereotype. He put his 1 skill point per level into Knowledge(clubs)