SRD Update 2/13?


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Dinkeldog said:

Yeah, but if WotC's intent was to not be in the module publishing business, what do they gain by keeping this subset of monsters (some of which are really staples, especially of underdark and higher level adventures) out of public usage?

Really, Displacer Beast is IP, but Blink Dog isn't? :rolleyes:
Perhaps it is not module publishing.

Whatever their reason, they either have something planned for them in the near future, or simply they wish to keep it to themselves, making the D&D books valuable.

Of course, if you can make a good argument that each creature is rooted from known mythology and thus are Public Domain, then you may get Wizards to loosen the leash a little.

But please, any argument that contains "Wizards sucks!" or anything derogatory or deemed as an attack upon them is not one to be taken seriously and should be ignored.
 

To be honest I'm fine with them cutting certain creatures... as someone said before it was understood under the gentleman's agreement that some things would change and even be cut...

that being said I think it is too bad that carrion crawlers and displacer beasts were taken out as they don't seem to me to be blockbuster IP names and ideas to me (or at least not as much as the others are)... I can understand the rest though and a part of me wonders if the creatures cut might be involved in some diabolical plan... such as the new campaign setting that is coming out from WotC?

Hmmm...

Could the new campaign setting be based on some (or all) of these creatures? Could taking them out of the SRD be part of a terrible plan to force those who love these creatures to have to come to WotC's new campaign setting for material on them?

I don't know, but someone out there does... and they are.... *thwak, muffled noise, the post ends abruptly*
 
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mouseferatu said:
But what bothers me the most is the precedent. I always understood why WotC didn't want to include world-specific concepts, such as god names or Mordenkainen, in the SRD. But now we're starting to get into what looks an awful lot like arbitrary decisions? Why take out these creatures? It can't just be because they're D&D-unique; so are owlbears and blink dogs, just for example.

Well, the beholders and mind flayers BOTH had species books put out for them under 2nd Edition, as did the sahaugin (anyone know offhand if they're in the SRD?). Maybe it's because of those books.
 

To be honest I'm fine with them cutting certain creatures... as someone said before it was understood under the gentleman's agreement that some things would change and even be cut...

Was it really?

I understood that some things would change, or be tweaked like the spell names.

It never occurred to me that some things that were allowed in the draft would be completely disallowed in the final version.

Maybe we're just naive, but this is a complete surprise not only to me, but to a lot of others who work in the industry.

Let me say again, it's possible WotC has a valid reason for this, and if so, I'll accept it, even though I won't ever like it. But I honestly can't think of one off-hand, and this is really bothering me. I wish they would have at least said something concurrent with the release.
 
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I posted this in another thread over at developer's board, but thought it would be good for this thread too...

Kamikaze Midget said:
If WotC wants to be a bit of a bad-guy by retaining things that are aparently essential PI for them, we can be a bit of a bad-guy by making our own generic knock-offs. We can make our own Faygo versions of these Coke and Pepsi products.

No problem. :D

Actually after going back over one of the earlier discussions on the OGL list I found the following posted by Ryan which might shed some light as to why:

1) You can't do what you just suggested (at least not the way you stated it).

2) Why these creatures were probably taken out of the SRD...

Please forgive the length of this quote, but I didn't want to cut anything...

Originally posted by Ryan

> Ryan, is this an oversight or is it intentional?

When preparing the monster sections of the SRD, I tried to remove all specific physical descriptions of the creatures. I did that because it would be very hard for a publisher to understand the difference between creating a derivative work based on WotC's illustration, and creating a derivative work based on a physical description. The former is a copyright infringement, the latter would be standard use of the OGL.

The SRD is drafted with an eye towards making it as easy as possible to tell a publisher "if you use what's in the SRD and ignore D&D, you >will< comply with the OGL, and the d20 System Trademark License, and won't infringe WotC's copyrights or trademarks".

Thus, if you want to create illustrations for creatures in the SRD, you need to create them from whole cloth, not by starting with the description in the Monster Manual. For most creatures, that's neither hard to do, nor very time consuming. For a handful, it's both. For most of the creatures, the illustrations you're likely to create will be recognizable to the average gamer, because those monsters are drawn from myth and legend and have commonly accepted forms and shapes. For the handful that don't, you are a bit out of luck. (Although, as I said before, they could be black-boxed. If you started with someone who had never seen an illustration of a Mind-Flayer, and gave them the SRD
description, and they gave you back an illustration of an octopus-headed humanoid, you'd be in the clear, since your work was not derivative of WotC's copyright).

> Is it the INTENT of WOTC to maintain character copyright over
> the physical descriptions of these creatures?

Here's the problem. WotC doesn't know what creatures are original to D&D, what creatures have names from myth or legend that are original D&D "versions" that are so unique as to consititute a whole new copyright, and what creatures are public domain. Various people in the company (and in TSR) have rendered their opinions on the matter in the past, and
they're almost all wrong - the reason is that TSR did not have a system for tracking the design inspirations for D&D and thus cannot rely on the memories of the people who are still on staff, or the assumptions prior staff members may have made about the copyrights. (exmple: "drow" was claimed by TSR as a copyright for a long time, until someone did the research to present independent, earlier usages of the term to refer to
"dark elves" that significantly predate D&D. That work done, the public domain character of "drow" has been firmly established; however, there are lots of people who work or have worked on the D&D business in some capacity that don't know it, and still assume that what they were told (that TSR "owned" "drow") was true. When they state that "fact", they're not lying or trying to decieve anyone, they're just passing along a knowledge-base of conventional wisdom that happens to be riddled with errors.)

As a part of preparing for 3rd Edition, we took a hard look at some of the core monsters in the D&D beastiary, and selected several of them to undergo a substantial visual reconcepting. The effort was made to end up with illustrations of the creatures that could not easily be duplicated without referencing WotC's illustrations; so that in turn we could generate licensing fees from selling the rights to those images to action figure manufacturers, computer game companies, etc. That list includes most of the popular and common monsters. Having done that work, WotC is unwilling to simply give it all away for free.

My standpoint is that illustrations are not game rules, or material that uses those rules, and therefore the control of derivative works for the illustrations of D&D falls outside the scope I perceive to be critical for the success of the Open Gaming movement. That viewpoint, combined with the strategy of leveraging the "new look" D&D monsters (that I helped craft) guided my choices when redacting the Monster Manual into SRD format.
[/B]

From the above I gather the following:

1) That from the beginning WotC was concerned with "derivitive works" abusing certain "PI" images in the MM...

2) That perhaps WotC was so concerned by the above that they decided to take out those creatures that they desired to protect from such violations (of which I believe there have been a few)...

3) That attempting to create "Brain Flayers", "Eye Balls", etc... would be considered "deriviate work" by WotC and probably frowned on by WotC and its probably its lawyers...

Hope this post by Ryan helps others to understand what perhaps is going on... I know it reminded me of the concerns WotC had with "derivative works" using the MM instead of the SRD as their basis... Perhaps WotC decided just to cut out the monsters to avoid problem...

Jaldaen
 

Hmm, makes sense at a glance at least.

Out of curiosity, how would it affect upcoming books like Paradigm Concept's Unveiled Masters: The Essential Guide to Mind Flayers?
 

reiella said:
Out of curiosity, how would it affect upcoming books like Paradigm Concept's Unveiled Masters: The Essential Guide to Mind Flayers?

I can't comment on that at this time, however I can safely say that another upcoming book that I was working on, "the Essential Guide to Slaadi", has been canned in the meantime due to these changes.
 

I guess that negatively impacts my chances of finding a way to publish my aberrant dragons as a family of five. :( :D :o

Maybe I can interest WotC in the concept? ;)


On a more serious note, it really impacts on the module publishers, and in a small way also on the monster books. It is a shame there was no real forewarning. :(

Edit - Now that I think of it, there was some minor warning - Mind flayers and yuan-ti are in D20 Modern, but not in the Modern SRD...
 
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