[SS] Tiefling "Monster Class"

[evildm]

If it was me, and someone wanted to use Tiefling at 1st level, just give them the base stats on the MM Tiefling, make them count as a first level PC, then allow them to take a level after they've acheived 1,000 exp.

To allow for some customization, let the player place most of the skill points (what small handful there is) and say they're proficient w/ all simple weapons. Then turn em loose, they'll have a decent HD and all that jazz, and theres no need for the "u get this stuff now, but u cant level up" stuff to worry about, that'd confuse me in the end.

While the simplicity is tempting, I'd have to disagree here. Reason being, if they kept the 1HD of the Tiefling and took a class level by level 2, then they'd be superior to a normal PC tiefling. They'd have the benefits of 1 HD, then 1 class level, and their additional tiefling abilities. If a character makes a tiefling using the rules as they are now (the class level replaces your 1 HD), then they'd be weaker than your suggestion.

Alternatively, you could have them lose their skill points, their HD, their BAB, and their base saves by the time they take a class level. That'd be kinda weird though, in my opinion. Worse yet, if you chose to keep their existing skill points, HD, etc. by level 2, then they might either luck out or be screwed:

For instance. A character makes a 1st level Tiefling using the MM stats. They get 8hp. 8 skill points. +1 BAB. +2 Fort, +2 Ref, +2 Will. Then, upon reaching level 2, the character opts to be a wizard. He's now broken the rules because a wizard shouldn't have 8hp, 8 skill points, +1 BAB, or all three good saves by level 1. Or if he decided to make a figher, he'd be in for a good thing cause even though he lost a few HP, he also gained 6 (!) skill points, and 2 more good saves.

EDIT: or u could let em slap an NPC class on there if it wouldnt be too game altering, possibly lower their Hp in the process.

Again, this would create the same problems as above, really. Balance issues.

Of course, if you're not one bit concerned (and your players aren't either) about accuracy or balance, then you can do this just fine, as long as nobody cares. But for an exacting player (or DM, admittedly), then you might want something a bit more accurate.

Thanks for the thoughts, keep em coming!

 

[Lord Ravinous]

I see what your sayin', i didnt really look at it like that. I just thought to myself "+1 ECL? heck make him 0-level", but i didnt realize they got all the extra BAB and Saves, thats what i get for not payin' attention, lol

EDIT: although, I'd make them take the avg hp givin' in the MM, since they didnt have a class level, they wouldnt get max hp. I'd let em max their HD from the class they took their 1st level in.

My extra electrum

 

[Caliber]

I'd say it's completely on-topic.

SS says to use rule of thumb and compare a 1st-level character of this race (using their favored or optimal class) vs an equal level character with the same class.

So in this case, you'd compare an LA +4 Tiefling with 1 level of Rogue with a 5th level rogue. Which one would you rather play? The rogue, obviously. So you knock the Tiefling's LA down 1 and compare again. Keep doing it until the choice is no longer so clear.

They do this several times in the book. I would've preferred a more strict or mathematical way of determining LA, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Still, SS is useful in that it gives some ideas on how you can judge it.

Thanks. I was hoping for a more strict rule myself, and hoping I had missed it.

Ah well. I guess if I read all the examples I'll get it. Reminds me of Calculus strangely ...

 

[evildm]

EDIT: although, I'd make them take the avg hp givin' in the MM, since they didnt have a class level, they wouldnt get max hp. I'd let em max their HD from the class they took their 1st level in.

I see what you're saying, yeah. And in my example above I should've said 4hp instead of 8hp. And the fighter still get's screwed.

 

[evildm]

Thanks. I was hoping for a more strict rule myself, and hoping I had missed it.

I'd hoped I'd missed it too, but alas I hadn't.

I guess if you really wanted, you could use the old ECL calculator here. Not sure how accurate it'd be, but if you really don't want to go the wishy-washy route that SS uses, this would be a good substitute.

EDIT: I just compared some values between SS and the ECL calculator and the values for the new LA/ECL system as opposed to the old ECL system are almost completely different. It'd take some fine tuning to use the ECL calculator, but I suppose it could still be done. Gives a ballpark figure for the most part, at least. Just a heads up.

Ah well. I guess if I read all the examples I'll get it. Reminds me of Calculus strangely ...

I suppose I should count myself lucky that I wasn't a good enough student to take Calculus.

 

[Intrope]

I just wanted to share another thought I had about LA +1/No HD creature types. In the DMG, their is an optional rule on starting a character as a 2-classed character that gives them part of both classes. For a LA +1 character, you could start them with 'half' of the racial benefits (like evildm did) and half the class benefits (as in this optional rule). They'd start pretty weak in class power (spell-chuckers get nothing but cantrips IIRC) but maybe enough to adventure as ECL 1.

Just a thought--I don't have a DMG handy so this may not work so well...any comments?

 

[evildm]

I just wanted to share another thought I had about LA +1/No HD creature types. In the DMG, their is an optional rule on starting a character as a 2-classed character that gives them part of both classes. For a LA +1 character, you could start them with 'half' of the racial benefits (like evildm did) and half the class benefits (as in this optional rule). They'd start pretty weak in class power (spell-chuckers get nothing but cantrips IIRC) but maybe enough to adventure as ECL 1.

Just a thought--I don't have a DMG handy so this may not work so well...any comments?

Actually, that probably would work quite well. My only concern would be that the character might be a little underpowered. Not entirely sure. I'd have to try it out and do some comparisons. I think it's just one of those things where YMMV though.

 

[Mercule]

Despite the Tiefling being an LA +1 (ECL 2) creature. I thought up a way so players could play them at first level. Simple as this...

Or, you could do what I do: Give the character a negative level to work off. My experience is that this is a great way to balance things for a level or two.

The biggest benefit is that you don't have to muck with any of this "monster class" drek. That, and being considerably simpler.

 

[evildm]

Re: Re: [SS] Tiefling "Monster Class"

Or, you could do what I do: Give the character a negative level to work off. My experience is that this is a great way to balance things for a level or two.

The biggest benefit is that you don't have to muck with any of this "monster class" drek. That, and being considerably simpler.

You can already do this without negative levels or anything. Just apply the LA as normal but start the character with 0xp. They need 3000xp for level 2. This works nice, and I've already considered it. My only concern would be with balance between the characters (particularly if your characters are level 1 for more than just a little while), it'd be a bit out of whack. The LA +1 character would be a fair bit more powerful than the other PCs (even moreso with a 1HD LA+2 or +3 creature). BUT, it still works, and yes it's simpler.

So if the players or DM are stingy for balance issues, then my method's a good peacekeeper, but if nobody's concerned with 1 or 2 levels of power difference for a short while, then by all means use the simpler methods.

 

[Mercule]

Re: Re: Re: [SS] Tiefling "Monster Class"

My only concern would be with balance between the characters (particularly if your characters are level 1 for more than just a little while), it'd be a bit out of whack. The LA +1 character would be a fair bit more powerful than the other PCs (even moreso with a 1HD LA+2 or +3 creature). BUT, it still works, and yes it's simpler.

That's what the negative level is for -- balance.

We did this with a half-dragon who entered my game as the group hit 2nd level. His feel and mine is that the two negative levels we made him work through (with XP, of course) were a good balance and pretty reasonable.