ST: From 007 to ... NCC-1701???

Elf Witch said:
Sure if they want to show Kirk as a young man younger than his days at the helm of the Enterprise but don't screw anymore with the continuity of the timeline.

Kirk and Spock were not the academy together as students Spock is older as is McCoy and Scotty where as Sulu and Chekov are younger.
If you go with many sources, they didn't enter SFA in the same year. Spock (who was just three years older than Kirk) entered SFA one year before Kirk. Chances are they could have met at the Academy.

McCoy may have either have entered into Starfleet Medical School (after graduating from University of Mississippi) or a nearby medical school in San Francisco to have met Kirk. Then again, SFA have many campuses and learning centers, including one near Saturn.
 

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Silver Moon said:
Actually I'd say that Season Four, which is the one after she joined, is actually the best season of the series. She added an interesting twist but the show still remained an ensemble-cast theme at that point. A while back fans rated their favorite five episodes from each Star Trek series - from the Voyager list (which included two 2-part episodes) five of the seven hours selected were from Season Four.
That's because they didn't vote with their brain, but the other body part. I don't blame them. Braga was captivated by her that they both became an item throughout the series run. But from Season Four and on, it's all about her character.

Silver Moon said:
And despite the show's flaws, Kate Mulgrew made an excellent Captain.
She's a human captain, sometimes prone to mood swings, but I wouldn't say she's an excellent one. I certainly don't think she deserves a promotion to admiral and a desk job (well, maybe the desk job, so long she's stays out of a captain's chair).
 

Ranger REG said:
That's because they didn't vote with their brain, but the other body part. I don't blame them. Braga was captivated by her that they both became an item throughout the series run. But from Season Four and on, it's all about her character.


She's a human captain, sometimes prone to mood swings, but I wouldn't say she's an excellent one. I certainly don't think she deserves a promotion to admiral and a desk job (well, maybe the desk job, so long she's stays out of a captain's chair).
She didn't do that bad, but she clearly had a few issues. :) But who knows how Picard, Kirk or Sisko would have fared "stranded" in the Delta Quadrant. It was clearly not the same situation as the other Captains had.

If you think about it, probably each of the Captains where in a unique situation. Kirk and Picard had probably the most similar "job", but somehow I think Kirks Federation/Starfleet was not as strong established as Picards one, which can explain the big differences in command style... :)
 

Ranger REG said:
If you go with many sources, they didn't enter SFA in the same year. Spock (who was just three years older than Kirk) entered SFA one year before Kirk. Chances are they could have met at the Academy.

McCoy may have either have entered into Starfleet Medical School (after graduating from University of Mississippi) or a nearby medical school in San Francisco to have met Kirk. Then again, SFA have many campuses and learning centers, including one near Saturn.

Mccoy had a grown daughter Checkov's age he joined Starfleet after his marriage broke up. He was about 15 years older than Kirk.

Roodenbeery once said that Spock was 50 when Kirk was 30.
 

Elf Witch said:
Dr Who a favorite of mine is not the same either. Each time another actor came in to play the doctor his personality and mannerism changed due to the regeneration. For example Peter Davison did not emulate Tom Baker but added some of the whimsy of Troughton's doctor. Colin Baker added the crankiness of Hartnell.

Right. Just not the same.

Please give me a rational reason why.

You can watch Hamlet with a different actor but not Kirk?

Kirk is a harder part than Hamlet?

I'm sorry, this was inevitable.

You don't have to like it, but characters that good outlive their creators.

In terms of an actor on screen, the creators consist of the writers and the actor.

Basically what you said in your two responses was that you enjoy it when a different actor plays a familiar character on stage, AND in science fiction TV, but just not Kirk.

So Kirk is a totally unique circumstance in the 3,000 year old history of drama?

Is that really your argumant?

I mean, every example people have given is dismissed as casually as you just did.

Hamlet? Not the same.

Bond? Batman? Sherlock Holmes? Not the same. Created by a writer and virtually cast in the minds of millions of readers.

Dr. Who? Not the same, even though he's an iconic science fiction character created on TV by an actor.

What about Obi-Wan Kenobi? Created on screen by an actor, who was associated with that part for decades (Star Wars is 1977, Phantom Menace is 1999).

Now I'm almost positive you're going to throw up something like, Alec Guiness didn't play Obi-Wan CONTINUOUSLY for all those decades (even though the character never left the public imagination, not to mention the airwaves).

But seriously.

I mean... you're basically down to arguing that you're ok with every part ever written being recast EXCEPT James T. Kirk.
 

Vigilance said:
What about Obi-Wan Kenobi? Created on screen by an actor, who was associated with that part for decades (Star Wars is 1977, Phantom Menace is 1999).

Now I'm almost positive you're going to throw up something like, Alec Guiness didn't play Obi-Wan CONTINUOUSLY for all those decades (even though the character never left the public imagination, not to mention the airwaves).

But seriously.

That's actually an argument I agree with. Alec Guiness played Obi-Wan for what, 1 movie? And tiny bit parts in the other 2.

Shatner played Kirk for what, 3 years on TV, another year (or 2, depending on how you count it) in the Animated series, 6 movies (plus a role in Generations), and a few video games. Not to mention commercials, in character appearances in things like Futurama, and even I think he supposedly wrote a Star Trek novel (probably ghost written) about Kirk - sort of a sequel to Generations. All over the course of 40 years.

I know other characters have been re-cast, but I can't think of one like that of Kirk, where one actor played him for so long. Dr. Who only went a few years before being changed. Sherlock Holmes was played by a lot of people when movies came out, rarely by the same person until Basil Rathbone took over. Sean Connery did 5 james Bond before getting replaced.

The only comparable character I can think of is Perry Mason. There were a lot of different Perry Masons in the movies in the 30s, but once Raymond Burr took it over, he was pretty strongly identified with the character, and all newer attempts to do Perry Mason him flopped.
 

trancejeremy said:
That's actually an argument I agree with. Alec Guiness played Obi-Wan for what, 1 movie? And tiny bit parts in the other 2.

Shatner played Kirk for what, 3 years on TV, another year (or 2, depending on how you count it) in the Animated series, 6 movies (plus a role in Generations), and a few video games. Not to mention commercials, in character appearances in things like Futurama, and even I think he supposedly wrote a Star Trek novel (probably ghost written) about Kirk - sort of a sequel to Generations. All over the course of 40 years.

I know other characters have been re-cast, but I can't think of one like that of Kirk, where one actor played him for so long. Dr. Who only went a few years before being changed. Sherlock Holmes was played by a lot of people when movies came out, rarely by the same person until Basil Rathbone took over. Sean Connery did 5 james Bond before getting replaced.

The only comparable character I can think of is Perry Mason. There were a lot of different Perry Masons in the movies in the 30s, but once Raymond Burr took it over, he was pretty strongly identified with the character, and all newer attempts to do Perry Mason him flopped.

So one actor has played the character for a long time.

And?

Either this character is totally unique in the thousands year old history of drama or he, like every other character ever created, or he, like every other character ever created, can be recast.

I mean, there's no analogy that will satisfy people.

Because really, Shatner PLAYED Kirk for 3 seasons of TV, 2 years of voice work and then 6 movies... so what's more important is the time he has been ASSOCIATED with the role, like Alec Guiness and Obi Wan.

No, there is no PERFECT ANALOGY.

Just a sea of millions of characters, all of whom can be recast, and 2 or 3 who cant.

That's what people seem to be arguing here and it's bunk.
 

trancejeremy said:
I think he supposedly wrote a Star Trek novel (probably ghost written).
Actually, it probably wasn't ghost-written, as Shatner is a published novelist. No comment on the quality of his writing, just the fact of it. ;)
Elf Witch said:
A new TOS Trek movie would not be the same as Hamlet because they would not be (I hope) redoing the old scripts.
Now wouldn't that be interesting! New actors, same script, updated effects . . . I'd see it, though I doubt many people would. It definitely wouldn't be worth the money to make.
 

Vigilance said:
So one actor has played the character for a long time.

And?

Either this character is totally unique in the thousands year old history of drama or he, like every other character ever created, or he, like every other character ever created, can be recast.

I mean, there's no analogy that will satisfy people.

Because really, Shatner PLAYED Kirk for 3 seasons of TV, 2 years of voice work and then 6 movies... so what's more important is the time he has been ASSOCIATED with the role, like Alec Guiness and Obi Wan.

No, there is no PERFECT ANALOGY.

Just a sea of millions of characters, all of whom can be recast, and 2 or 3 who cant.

That's what people seem to be arguing here and it's bunk.

As I said in another post that this is my opinion. I don't want to see another actor play Kirk I have explained why it is different to me than the examples you brought up. I really don't appreciate having my personal opinion of why I don't want to see a new Kirk labeled as bunk.

None of those examples were the same. I will give you an example Tigh on Battlestar Galatica or any character for that matter on the new show. In no way at all are they anything like the characters on BSG TOS. They are not meant to be, the shows are not even ment to be related. The new show is not a contiunation of the old show nor is it the same show as before having new stories told about it.

So the actors playing these roles are not playing the same character as the actors who played them before.

In the case of Obi Won it was two actors playing the same role at the characters different stages of life the same as River Phoenix playing a Young Indy in the last movie or the actor playing the young indy. Or even on Stargate when the Asgard cloned Jack and made a younger version of him. All these actors worked on their mannerism to make the younger version of the character the same as the older version.

As I said before if they want to make a new Trek using a young Kirk that would be one thing. I personally am tired of recycling of shows and would like to see something new. But if they are just planning on retelling the voyages of the Enterprise under Kirk's command then I am not interested in seeing it because to me there is only one James T Kirk and that is William Shatner. Or any of the other character as well.

I am a major trekkie and while the restart of BSG bothered me a little there is no way I am intrested in seeing that done in the Trek universe. I don't want to see everything that came before just waved away and a new timeline and cannon started. This is my personal opinion. Now for people who don't care or would love to see a new Trek made like this that is their opinion and neither opinion is more valid than the other.


As for some of the other examples you mentioned I know several people who won't watch any Bond other than Connery. I don't care because I read the Bond novels before I ever saw a movie the same way I read Sherlock Holmes before seeing a movie or tV show. I had a pretty good idea in my mind about the characters and how they were supposed to me long before I saw it acted out. Which is why some of the actors who play Holmes I like better than others because I feel that they captured who Holmes is better than some others. I hate the way they portray Watson as a bumbling idiot in the Basil Rathbone movies he is not Watson as far as I am concerned.

Right now in Stargate fandom a lot of fans are up in arms over the idea of Devlin making the sequels he had planned after the first movie mainly because he wants to use the original actors Kurt Russel and James Spader. They feel that it is an insult to the actors who have played the characters on the tV show for the last ten years.

I don't feel that way because the movie has a different mythos than the TV show the aliens are a different species than the Gou'ld as one example. To me the movies characters are different even O'neil name is spelled differently. So I don't see a problem with it. But if they decided to make Stargate SG 1 movies with all new cast I would feel the same way as I do about replacing the original trek actors. I would not want to watch it.


In another example when they replaced Dumbledore in the Harry Potter movies after Richard Harris's death a lot of the fans did not like Michael Gambon. I liked him better than Richard Harris because to me the new actor was more how I pictured Dumbledore from the books. But when they replaced Peter Duel's character in Alias Smith and Jones after his death I could not watch it no matter how good the actor was he was not Hannibal Hayes to me and not to most of the other fans either the ratings plummented.

You brought up Hamlet as an example. Here is why that is different to me in the play hamlet the character starts at one point of the characters development moves through the play until his death at the end. It does not deviate from this path. Sure I have seen Hamlet done with a full set and medevial costumes and props and I have seen it done on a bare stage no props with the actors in street clothes. The sets may be different but Hamlet's journey is not. The actors playing Hamlet don't change that journey. Hamlet does not evolve and change every actor who plays Hamlet takes the same journey.

In the Bond movies they are not really related they don't really tell one continuous storyline. What happens in one movie does not carry on into the next. This is very unlike a TV show where the character evolves and changes as the show goes on. It is why TV actors are often more closely identified with a role than an actor who plays a role in a play or movie.

Anyway I hope this long post has explained why I don't want to see another play Kirk as an adult. Or any of the other characters replaced.
 

Elf Witch said:
Mccoy had a grown daughter Checkov's age he joined Starfleet after his marriage broke up. He was about 15 years older than Kirk.
If you consider the animation's timeline (I don't), his daughter Joanna (born c. 2249) would be 2 years old while McCoy, a Starfleet Medical student (probably a reserve officer training program at University of Misssippi, to be graduated in 2253) is leading a mass innoculation program at Dramma II at 2251.

Even the animation's timeline puts McCoy at least 6 years older than Kirk (supporting sources).


Elf Witch said:
Roodenbeery Roddenberry once said that Spock was 50 when Kirk was 30.
Maybe. And Joanna McCoy was supposed to be in the "space hippie" episode, "The Way to Eden," written by DC Fontana, but they rewrote her script and replace the Joanna character with Irina, whom Chekov fell in love.

It's Kirk who was about 14-15 years older than Chekov. Don't confuse the two.
 

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