Stacking Blur and Mirror Image

[Hypersmurf]

Oh? Mirror image doesn't actually say that a successful attack to some part of the illusion destroys it, only an attack to the duplicate.

"The figments stay near you and disappear when struck."

"Any successful attack against an image destroys it."

Can you stab a mirror image in its shadow and destroy it?

Is the shadow part of the illusion, or is the shadow created naturally because the illusion is opaque?

If the shadow is part of the illusion, I'd say yes - and you'd require an attack roll against AC 10 + size + Dex to do it.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

From the FAQ

The mirror image spell description says the images have an Armor Class of 10 + size modifier + Dexterity modifier. Can you improve this with spells the spellcaster casts on herself, such as shield or mage armor? If so, why doesn’t the spell description say the images have the caster’s Armor Class? What happens if the caster has cover from her surroundings? Will cover improve the images’ ACs? What about concealment? Will fog or foliage produce a miss chance for a foe that aims an attack at an image? What about magical concealment, such as a blur or displacement spell?

The images from a mirror image spell don’t use the caster’s Armor Class. Use the formula in the spell description to calculate each image’s Armor Class (10 + caster’s size modifier + caster’s Dexterity modifier). Use the caster’s current Dexterity modifier for each image’s Armor Class, no matter how the caster happened to get that modifier. Any Armor Class improvements the caster might have from equipment she carries or wears, or from magic operating on her person, don’t apply to the images. For example, a Medium user with a Dexterity score of 16, a shield spell, and a suit of +2 leather armor has an Armor Class of 21 (10 +4 shield, +4 armor, and +3 Dexterity), but her images have an Armor Class of 13 (10 +3 Dexterity).

It’s easiest to assume the images share the user’s location on the battlefield, and gain any cover bonuses that might apply to the spell user in that location. If the character in the previous example were behind cover, she would have an Armor Class of 25 and her images would have an Armor Class of 17.

If the user has concealment from her surroundings, the images have the same concealment. The images also look just like the caster, and they share purely visual effects such as the blur or displacement spell. If the mirror image user is also using either of these effects, an attack aimed at an image has the same miss chance an attack aimed at the caster has.

From the SRD

Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal; see text
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.

Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).
While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.

An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)

I don't see anything wrong with the FAQ answer since you have to successfully hit the MI to make it disappear - not merely attack it. That is why they list an AC for the MI in the first place.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I don't see anything wrong with the FAQ answer since you have to successfully hit the MI to make it disappear - not merely attack it. That is why they list an AC for the MI in the first place.

But the thing is that with a Blurred creature, within the visual phenomenon you observe, there are Creature and Non-Creature elements. If you swing at the visual phenomenon, you might successfully hit it... but only strike Non-Creature elements, and miss the Creature entirely.

But with a figment of a Blurred creature, the visual phenomenon includes no Non-Figment elements. The Blur effect is not a separate illusion; rather, it is the figment mimicking [a creature affected by a separate illusion]. If you successfully strike any part of that visual phenomenon, it is guaranteed to be Figment, not Non-Figment, because it's all Figment.

Unless you apply the FAQ answer, which implies that the figment looks like the non-Blurred caster, and then both figment and caster benefit from the separate illusion of the Blur spell. Which neither the Mirror Image text nor the Blur text in the PHB supports.

It goes back to Riga Mortus's blanket. We have a [creature] who is wearing a [blanket]. The Mirror Image does not produce a figment of a [creature] wearing a figment of a [blanket]; it produces a figment of a [creature wearing a blanket], and a successful attack against the figment - in its creature or its blanket elements - will cause the [creature wearing a blanket] image to disappear.

We have a [creature] who is surrounded by a [Blur]. The Mirror Image does not produce a figment of a [creature] surrounded by a figment of a [Blur]; it produces a figment of a [creature surrounded by a Blur], and a successful attack against the figment - in its creature or its Blur elements - will cause the [creature surrounded by a Blur] image to disappear.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

Hyp, your analysis, while reasonable, once again sounds like you are way overthinking it.

 

[wildstarsreach]

WotC in the FAQ decided that the blur effect does stack.

But rules-wise, it would not be allowed since Blur is Target creature, not Target creature plus images.

Also, it does not make logical sense either (as KB pointed out).

If you have a mirror image distorted as per blur, if you hit the blurred portion of it, you are still hitting the mirror image. With normal Blur, if you hit into the illusion portion, you are missing the target. But the entire illusion portion of a Blurred Mirror Image is created by the Mirror Image spell itself emulating the visual aspect of the caster.

Here's the problem with this position, it is an argument that the blurred character is different from the images. Either they get the benefit or they don't and the character can be attacked directly.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Here's the problem with this position, it is an argument that the blurred character is different from the images. Either they get the benefit or they don't and the character can be attacked directly.

How do you feel about the blanket?

If the character puts a blanket on his head, does it distinguish him from the figments, or do they appear to have blankets on their heads too?

If they all have blankets, will successfully attacking an illusory blanket dispel the figment?

-Hyp.

 

[phindar]

I'm not sure I buy the blanket argument for a variety of reasons. (The first of which is I'm not convinced putting a blanket over your head would give you concealment. Also, its a non-magical effect, which is less useful comparing it to magical effects. And I'm not sure the best way to figure out a rule is by applying it in a totally artificial scenario that is itself outside the RAW; but I'll accept in the spirit of the hypothetical that a character might end up in battle with a blanket over its head and Mirror Image up.)

If the images benefit from environmental concealment (like fog, poor lighting and so on, but not darkness which would invalidate the images altogether, except against darkvision... you see where I'm going with this...) then I can buy them benefiting from spells that grant purely visual effects. That's not a huge leap for me. I prefer that interpretation because I like the idea of spells combining in interesting ways, and if casters want to sink a bunch of spells into primarily defensive abilities, I'm all for that. (And from a game balance perspective, there are ways around MI and there are ways around concealment, so its not a huge deal.)

 

[irdeggman]

Well blur provides "concealment" and the MI benefits from all concealment that the subject has in the first place.

Does the MI benefit from being in darkness?

If so then the logic does apply here also, at least IMO.

I believe that the reason the MI disappears when hit is because the observer is faced with "proof" that the illusion isn't real by actually hitting it. So if the observer hasn't hit it (that miss chance thing) then he has no proof. Now the text doesn't specifically state this but you can arrive at that conclusion by putting things together.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief ): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm not sure I buy the blanket argument for a variety of reasons. (The first of which is I'm not convinced putting a blanket over your head would give you concealment. Also, its a non-magical effect, which is less useful comparing it to magical effects.

I'm not talking about the blanket providing concealment.

I'm talking about attacking the blanket. Call it a Sunder a Worn Item attempt, if you like.

If you successfully hit the real blanket, it doesn't affect the creature.

If you successfully hit an illusory blanket, isn't what you successfully hit part of the figment created by the Mirror Image spell? By successfully hitting the figment, didn't you destroy the figment?

Even though what you hit isn't part of the creature (in the real version), it's part of the effect of the Mirror Image spell.

The blurry outline isn't part of the creature (in the real version), so striking the blurry outline doesn't hurt the creature. But the duplicate of the blurry outline is part of the figment created by Mirror Image. The MI doesn't just duplicate the biological bits; it represents what an observer sees when looking at the creature, so that includes clothes, armor, weapons, blankets, and blurry outlines. All of those things are part of the figment, so successfully striking any of them is successfully striking the figment.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now the text doesn't specifically state this but you can arrive at that conclusion by putting things together.

Mirror Image doesn't allow a saving throw in the first place...?

-Hyp.