Stacking question, Giant Size + Expansion

[GammaPaladin]

Now, generally size enhancing spells do not stack. But there's no general rule stating this, it's simply spelled out explicitly in most spell descriptions.

Giant size is an exception. It has no specific prohibition on stacking.

More to the point, it's not actually a size enhancement spell. It's a size setting spell. If a titanic creature with a caster level of 19 were to cast it... He would shrink to Colossal size.

So the question is... Can you use Giant Size, and then use Expansion (Or have someone cast enlarge person, etc)? It sees to me, from a very literalist reading, that it would work.

Of course, there are only 2 or 3 builds where this would ever be an issue (And one of them is using Fusion to create an instant gestalt character, and sane GMs usually disallow the Fusion power), but I'm curious to see how other people would rule on it

 

[Arkhandus]

To quote the SRD on the Expansion psionic power:

Multiple effects that increase size do not stack, which means (among other things) that you can’t use a second manifestation of this power to further expand yourself.

Bold emphasis mine. Expansion does not work for that. And trying to twist around the meaning of the Giant Size spell is just bad.

To quote Enlarge Person, as well:

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

No dice.

 

[GammaPaladin]

I know, I've read that. However, Giant Size is not really a size increasing effect. It simply sets your size to Huge, Gargantuan, or Colossal, regardless of your initial size, based solely on your caster level.

Therefore you cannot really consider it a size increase effect. As I pointed out before, if you were a sufficiently large creature to start with, you could in fact use Giant Size as a size decreasing spell.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

I have to agree with Arkhandus, I'd call shenanigans if I was the DM.

 

[Arkhandus]

Question: Does Giant Size make you bigger, if you cast it as a human? Yes, yes it does. Therefore, it does in fact increase your size. You were not Gargantuan or whatever beforehand; you were Medium. Your size increased compared to its previous state.

Also, I don't know how the text of Giant Size may've changed in 3.5, but in Oriental Adventures (its original source) it says "This spell causes you to grow to Huge or larger size, depending on your caster level." Bold emphasis mine. Not that you even need the spell to be worded that way, since the rest is just simple English; the other spells/powers specify that they do not stack with other size increases, so they won't stack with Giant Size either.

 

[GammaPaladin]

Well, I personally just can't see it as a size increase, since it's not explicitly additive. I mean, that may be the intent, but the RAW reading of it leaves room for interpretation, because if that's the intent, they're writing it as if the PC's normal size is assumed to be large or smaller, which is silly because PCs are not limited to creatures of those sizes.

So it's either poorly written, or it stacks... It's just up to the individual to determine which, and I'm curious to see which way people read it.

 

[irdeggman]

Well, I personally just can't see it as a size increase, since it's not explicitly additive. I mean, that may be the intent, but the RAW reading of it leaves room for interpretation, because if that's the intent, they're writing it as if the PC's normal size is assumed to be large or smaller, which is silly because PCs are not limited to creatures of those sizes.

So it's either poorly written, or it stacks... It's just up to the individual to determine which, and I'm curious to see which way people read it.

Why would either be true?

I skips large size and goes to Huge, Gargantuan or Colossal depending on caster level. Doesn't mean it "stacks" that is the effect - a single change in size.

The text says "you grow to. . ." and "(You need not assume the largest size you are capable of, you can choose to grow only to a smaller size if you wish.)

It has a table with coresponding changes (due to size increase) and even references the DMG for weapons of different size to handle how their damage should be adjusted.

I find it difficult to read it as not being a size increase spell.

It is self only and a Wu jen exclusive spell so there are a lot of other factors in how this fits together.

As ppointed out the other spells/powers will not stack with this by specific restriction contained within the spells/powers themselves.

As a counter example of something that would stack - the Goliath racial ability powerful build specifically states that the benefits "stacks" with other effects that change the subjects size category (except for the racial substitution level barbarian that says it does not stack).

 

[akbearfoot]

Sorry....no monk psiwarrior with use activated items of giant size and expansion doing like 11d8 base unarmed damage allowed. Especially not with imp nat attack, superior unarmed strike and a monks belt, psionic lions charge and vampiric weapon cast on his fists...


Hrmmm I charge you and flurry for 6 attacks all at +2 to hit and +35 or so base damage from having like a 40 strength and dumping pts into psionic lions charge. And half of ever 11d8 hit that lands I heal for....

Sounds like shenanigans to me!

 

[shilsen]

Well, I personally just can't see it as a size increase, since it's not explicitly additive. I mean, that may be the intent, but the RAW reading of it leaves room for interpretation, because if that's the intent, they're writing it as if the PC's normal size is assumed to be large or smaller, which is silly because PCs are not limited to creatures of those sizes.

So it's either poorly written, or it stacks... It's just up to the individual to determine which, and I'm curious to see which way people read it.

Just because it's written with the assumption that most PCs are not normally of huge size doesn't mean it's poorly written. If the rules covered every corner case, each spell and power description would be ten times as long. And huge PCs, which almost never show up, is very definitely a corner case. In short, it doesn't stack. Arguing otherwise, as far as I'm concerned, is a case of trying to seriously twist the wording of an ability to gain unintended benefits.

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm curious to see which way people read it.

No stacking. I don't even need to think about this.