Stalker0's Hero Point System Ver 1.2

[Stalker0]

Once again I attempt to extend the action point system into something more versatile and fun for the players.

In my last attempt, I tried to do a huge large scale revamp. I didn't have a lot of success, it was simply too complicated. In this version, I have focused the system down to the core aspects I'm looking for, and hope to meet a much better reception.


Stalker0’s Hero Point System Ver 1.2

Replaces Action Points: This system is designed to overwrite the current AP system. Spending a Hero Point counts as spending an Action Point for anything that uses action points.

Gaining Hero Points: Players start a session with one hero point and gain an additional hero point at the end of each encounter. After an extended rest, hero points reset to 1.

Spending Hero Points: Hero points can only be spent on the creature’s action, but require no action to use. Multiple hero points can be spent in the same encounter, but only one action per round.

Elite/Solo Monsters
1) Instead of action points, Elite monsters receive 1 “villain” points, Solo monsters receive 3.
2) Monsters with hero points can use all the abilities that PCs can unless otherwise noted.



Hero Point Actions
Costs Special:

Beyond Time: A creature can spend hero points at any time. This even allows you to act during another’s actions (treat it as a readied action for purposes of interrupting). It also allows you to take multiple hero point actions in the same round.
Cost: Cost of the ability you are using + 1 hero point.

Moment of Clarity (PC only): A creature can immediately swap one of their unexpended active powers with a power from their reserves. Special: A player can use this ability whenever spending a hero point for another effect.
(Designed in conjunction with my reserve power system, not included).



Costs 1 Point:

Heroic Action: The creature can take an extra action, just like if it had spent an action point.

Power Surge: The creature can instantly recharge any encounter power (or any power that has a recharge rate).

Saving Grace: The creature makes an immediate saving throw against one effect, even one that does not normally allow a saving throw. The creature gains a +2 bonus to the roll.




Costs 4 Points

Greater Power Surge: The creature can instantly recharge any daily power.




Racial Adjustments using Hero Points

Bold (in addition to normal): Whenever you spend a hero point, in addition to the normal benefit, you also gain a saving grace saving throw against one fear effect.

Cast Iron Stomach (in addition to normal): Whenever you spend a hero point, in addition to the normal benefit, you also gain a saving grace saving throw against one poison effect.

Eladrin Will (in addition to normal): Whenever you spend a hero point, in addition to the normal benefit, you also gain a saving grace saving throw against one charm effect.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I think this is too cheap at 1 Hero point:

Power Surge: The creature can instantly recharge any encounter power (or any power that has a recharge rate).

For comparison: there is a Warlord level 9 Daily Attack power that lets one ally recharge and use and encounter power and you regain an encounter power if you have none.

It seems that this variant really helps the players more than the monsters. It's nearly doubling the amount of action points the players get. You aren't giving the elite anything extra, and the solo only 1 extra. I would give the Elite 2 villain points and the Solo 4 villain points. I would even consider giving the regular mobs a villain point.

Getting more hero points also makes the human Action Surge power about twice as powerful (and every human already had the feat), and it makes the Warlord more powerful compared to the other classes.

Btw, the system is simple enough to be useful, I just don't like the balance of it.

Regarding balance, the problem is maybe giving nearly double the amount of action points? I like the thought of more options.

 

[Matt James]

I like the thought of increased options available but the system as presented seems unbalanced compared to the possible threats. The action point, and subsequent systems, are definitely on the slippery slope of power creep and you should tread lightly in this area.

Please don't let this feedback prevent you from doing these things; I love the ingenuity.

 

[Stalker0]

In my current game I already use the houserule that players get 1 AP every encounter instead of every other. Once in a blue moon I have seen the save 5 AP and supernova attack...but the player had fun doing it and meanwhile they were not using AP in other encounters.

So I'm not too worried about this part. And if peole dislike it, they can always acquire hero points at the normal rate and just add in the flexibility.

I think the recharging will be balanced around the fact that the player is giving up extra attacks to recharge powers. So the action economy helps balance it out. You can use better powers, but you get fewer attacks.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I too like the expanded options, but think that the inbalance between monsters and players is not too my liking.

I would have elites with 3 Hero Points, solos' with 4, and have the Power Surge cost 2 points.

I reallly like the Beyond Time and Moment of Clarity {which can be used by arcane casters right out of the box, providing them some more versatility}

 

[Stalker0]

So I've been using the new system for a while and its worked much better than my old system. People are using their points more frequently and are much more comfortable with the system than my old system.

From playtesting, I've noticed a couple of things:

1) My players really like the bonus save. I find that is one of the most common uses for hero points. They also like the ability to swap their powers midfight.

2) I have stopped allowing multiple hero point actions on the same turn. The nova effect has turned out to be too great. I still allow players to have multiple hero point actions per encounter...but now only once per round. The Beyond Time mechanic does allow multiple hero point actions on the same turn.

My players seem fine with this, its still more than the core system but it tones down the largest abuse with the system I've seen.

3) The greatest kickback I've gotten from the players is the saving grace mechanic for monsters. They really don't like saving up their dailies for a solo just to watch him shrug them off like they were nothing.

We are still working on solo mechanics. Everyone realizes that solos have to be able to act, and currently 4e really doesn't give solos good protections against effects. There's a balance between allowing players to use their cool effects and allowing the most powerful monsters in the game to still do their thing...and its a balance we are still working on.

4) One of the most interesting notes is that while the majority of the feedback in the thread has been about concerned abuse of the Power Surge ability...my players almost never use it! I think the reason is at 17th level, they have a good amount of powers. They want to act, so saving throws and extra actions are more important to them. At low levels it may be different, but the 1 point Power Surge ability seems fine right now. I don't think my players would ever even consider using it if it costs 2 points.

 

[eriktheguy]

Quick question, did implementing this system change the number of encounters your PCs did per day?

 

[Stalker0]

Quick question, did implementing this system change the number of encounters your PCs did per day?

Not really. My players have generally been pretty good at multiple encounters. However, if they are drained of dailies they will still want to rest. Once in a while a player might take his 3 hero points over resting for the day, but generally when the party's ready to rest they try to rest.

 

[Starfox]

I've been thinking of saving throws for monsters; how "save ends" effects last too short a time, especially against solos and elites. The reason I take this up here is that if you give elites 2 and solos 4 AP, maybe you could remove their save bonuses? Then again, that makes orb wizard stunlock ridiculously easy.

I got to think more on this

 

[Nikosandros]

Interesting, I might steal this for my game, since I've been looking for ways to expand on the functions of action points.

Have you posted your reserve power system somewhere?