D&D 5E Stalker0's Maneuver Review

Stalker0

Legend
So now that I have gotten to play around some with ED and maneuvers, I wanted to give my general summary of each of them. I'm also going to give each one a rating. An "A" is the creme de la creme, whereas an F I can never see taking as written.

Deadly Strike (A): I'm doing this one out of alphabetical order because I believe this is the current benchmark by which all other maneuvers are judged. If I take a combat maneuver, I'm always going to ask "will this help me as much as deadly strike?"

So how "deadly" is deadly strike? Let's do a damage check. Since I don't know all the possible damage bonuses that will exist in the game, I'm going to give this example fighter the high side on some damage numbers to try and compensate. I'm also not going to factor in crits.

1st level Fighter with 18th strength wielding a two-handed Greatsword. I don't believe THF currently gives you x1.5 damage from strength, but I'm going to use this to once again account for other damage bonuses I don't know about. So 1d12 (6.5) + 6 (str) = 12.5.
So a d4 deadly strike = 2.5 average damage, which is 20% more damage.

5th level Fighter now with +2 magic weapon. 1d12 (6.5) + 6 (str) + 2 (magic) = 14.5.
Deadly Strike is 2d6 = 7 average damage, which is 48% more damage.

10th level Fighter with 20 str, and a +3 magic weapon. 1d12 (6.5) + 7 (str) + 3 (magic) = 16.5
Deadly Strike is 3d10 = 16.5, which is 100% more damage.

So the conclusion is that anytime a character is not using deadly strike, he is giving up a significant portion of his damage ability. As currently written, I think this maneuver is likely too powerful. It's simply too swingy in damage between when its used and when its not, and it creates too much competition for other maneuvers.

Cleave (C): This one is still causing confusion as written. Unlike other maneuvers, it sounds like I get to roll the expertise dice and still keep my damage bonus. If that is true, then it's not too bad, but I still question why I would pick this maneuver up when I have deadly strike. Sure...it's great to be able to hit multiple targets, but I only do it if I kill the first one (and better to use DS to ensure that I do). I also think forcing an extra attack roll is unnecessary. Just use the original attack roll and save some rolling (and then I can get a double crit which I think would make this maneuvers much sexier).

Composed Attack (C): This one has an okay effect that it does in a clunky way. Players are always going to try and negate disadvantage whenever possible on their own, so a big question is how often this is going to come up? Combine that with the randomness (it may not help you at all depending on your roll) and this maneuver is lackluster to me. I think it should read: "spend all of your expertise dice and again advantage on any attack that has disadvantage". That way it would be clean and effective at what it does.

Controlled Fall (D): Maneuvers like this are very situational, and situational anything has either be very common or extremely powerful to compete with general abilities. Controlled fall is okay at what it does, but it's just powerful enough to warrant taking compared to other maneuvers.

Danger Sense (B): Initiative bonuses are always useful. This maneuver both provides a bonus that could stack with other initiative bonuses and it doesn't conflict at all with other combat maneuvers, meaning it's simply a true bonus.

Defensive Roll (C): Just like controlled fall, but mostly against blast spells. Since we still have a good amount of Dex save for half spells out there, I feel this one will come up more than controlled fall, hence its higher rating.

Deflect Missiles (C): Unlike parry, the AC bonus here may provide you complete protection or no bonus at all. When it comes to defense, certainty is a big factor so the AC bonus isn't as good. Also, ranged weapons tend to do less damage than melee ones. The follow-up abilities to throw missiles is currently too complicated and provides too little benefit to be worthwhile.

Flurry of Blows (D): It's basically a mook killer. Because I'm rolling only my expertise die I'm basically doing a lot of rolling for piddly damage, so unless the creature only has a few hitpoints this is a lot of rolling for wasted effort.

Glancing Blow (C): On the surface, this ability is pretty lousy. I have to roll a 10 or better and miss, so its situational use is fairly rare. And I once again do paltry damage. Its only saving grace is because it works on a miss it doesn't conflict with other combat maneuvers. I can hit and do deadly strike, or miss and do glancing blow. So for the characters who hate to do nothing, its an okay maneuver.

Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will (B): I'm lumping these all together. While their bonus is random, saving throw bonuses seem very rare in the game right now and characters tend to make a lot of them. The way I'm interpreting them is I can roll my save and then choose to use the maneuver, which means they don't conflict with other maneuvers as much. At low levels I don't think it will see a lot of use but once I can get +5-10 on my saving throws I think it will be huge.

Hurricane Strike (B): This maneuver provides a true "maneuver" that your character can do. Push effects were pretty useful in 4e and this one can be scaled to how much you need. If you just need a quick push you can also lump in some deadly strike. If you need to knock the guy flat out then you can spend a lot of dice.

Iron Root Defense (B): I like the strength of this one and that it's so solidly different from maneuvers like parry. It provides a very nice bonus, has good flavor, but has important restrictions that keep it from conflicting with other maneuvers. If you want defense, this is a great way to go about it.

Mighty Exertion (B): For the character that wants to sacrifice damage from other abilities this is the one to do it. It gives you the equivalent of an attack bonus on all combat maneuvers like disarm, push, and trip...and provides a bonus to strength skills as well. What makes this one is that it works during those times when you aren't planning to do damage anyway, so it doesn't compete with damage maneuvers.

Opportunist (F): Opportunity attacks just don't come up enough to warrant spending abilities on them. If we still had 3e rules that let reach weapons generate lots of OAs or standing from prone provoked them it might be one thing, but as is I can't see opportunity attacks coming up enough to make this worth it.

Parry (B): Just a solid all around defensive maneuver. It works most of the time and because it can turn hits into misses you can actually negate other effects like poison.

Precise Shot (F): This is a stinker in my opinion. First of all, cover just doesn't come up that often, so you are already spending a precious maneuver for something rare. Second, the effect is very fiddly. I think the maneuver should read: "spend 1 expertise die to negate 1/2 cover, spend 2 to negate 3/4 cover". Even with that, I would rate it a C at best.

Protect (B): Parry for an ally. It's not going to come up as often as parry so on that I would rate it lower. However, this ability so well provides the "defender" ability many like to have that I think it will see a lot of use for that alone. Also, it does work against ranged weapons unlike parry.

Skill Mastery (A): The definitive maneuver for the rogue right now. Gives you a powerful skill bonus in or out of combat. Literally makes you the master of skills compared to those who don't have it.

Sneak Attack (B): Deadly Strike - lite. Its just as strong as DS, but more situational. Its also controversial right now because people are asking "why can't the rogue just get DS?"

Spring Attack (C): The damage is poor, but spring attack also lets you perform attacks when you normally cannot, so it gives you a lot of flexibility. And you can combine it with effects like DS to account provide decent damage.

Step of the Wind (C): On the one hand, this is a very defining ability, as speed can be a great asset. But the randomness is a very very large drawback. Moving is often an all or nothing thing, either I can make the distance, or I can't....in which case I won't move at all. It gets a C right now because of its higher level abilities which are actually really nice even if I didn't get any speed bonus at all. If this maneuver simply provided a set amount of speed per die spent, it would likely be a B in my book.

Tumbling Dodge (D): With my experience with rogue's, you try to avoid OAs like the plague. Rogue's don't want bonuses to OAs, they don't want to take OAs. If this maneuver negated one OA per die spent, it would be a hit. Otherwise, there is better stuff out there to take.

Vault (D): Again, the randomness kills you here. If I'm going to make a jump I want consistency not randomness. And beyond that this is exceptional situational. It only avoided an F because there are so few ways to increase your jump because it's not a skill.

Volley (C): In some ways its better than cleave. You don't have to knock something down to 0, and you can do it with ranged attacks which offer more opportunities to use it. Also you get to keep the original attack, so you have more consistency and possibility for mass crits. On the other hand the damage is much lower than cleave. Overall I rated it the same.

Whirlwind Attack (D): Similar to volley, but volley will have an easier time finding targets to use this on, and cleave and whirlwind conflict with other, and I think cleave it actually the better choice.
 

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Kinak

First Post
I would agree with what you have here in general, but I think you're underrating Parry and Protect compared to my experience.

Killing a monster a round early will save the party a round of attacks. But in a lot of cases, a Parry or Protect will actually negate multiple rounds of attacks.

This is a bigger deal due to monster's low to-hit. Because if you negate an attack and monsters are only hitting a quarter of the time, you just "killed" a monster four rounds early... if I'm making any sense there.

We usually measure damage per round, but that's a stand-in for the real question: damage dealt per damage taken. There are combats where the fighter negates all incoming damage, which makes DPR an irrelevant question, but even halving the total incoming damage has the same effect as doubling the party's DPR.

And if you don't need to Parry/Protect in a round, you can still use those dice to Deadly Strike so they never go to waste. It's pretty sweet, really.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

SatanasOz

Explorer
Although I would argue with you about some of the specifics, I am on board with you general assessment. The most interesting trend for me so far:

Since there is a benchmark for "in combat" maneuvers (I see deadly strike and parry in this category), it is certainly very hard to find a something to compete with that on even ground.

On the other hand, the moment a maneuver opens itself up for use in the other two pillars, it becomes highly competitive again. That is the way I would like to see the system expanded further.
 

MortalPlague

Adventurer
Most of your list seems pretty spot on. There aren't many I disagree on, and certainly not by more than one letter grade. Some standouts:

Deadly Strike IS an A-list power. I'd put Parry on the same level. Every fighter should get both by default, in my opinion.

Opportunist IS awful. It's so situational, and it's not very powerful either.

The only other one I might rate higher is Precise Shot. In some games, cover comes up more than others, and in such a game, it could be useful. It still has a problem with being very fiddly, though.
 

ZombieRoboNinja

First Post
Very good overview, [MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION]! A few things though:

1. Your Deadly Strike math doesn't take into account the extra attack fighters get at 6th level. That means the level 10 fighter attacks twice for 16.5 damage each time, and only adds Deadly Strike damage to one of them... so DS isn't quite as overwhelming.

2. I agree with Kinak that Parry and Protect can be very important. A while back someone did statistical work to prove that against existing monsters, using Parry every round is way more effective than ever using DS... and that's BEFORE they changed when dice refresh. Now, since you don't have to sacrifice DS until you know you're getting hit, Parry and Protect are really incredible.

3. I think you're underrating the "mook-killer" powers. It's really useful for a fighter to have a way to carve through multiple weak enemies per round. But it would certainly be a waste of a maneuver to have more than one way of achieving this - so a fighter shouldn't take cleave AND whirlwind attack, and a monk, who's stuck with Flurry of Blows, shouldn't take either.

4. You're also underestimating Flurry of Blows quite a bit, IMHO... it averages out to the same damage as DS, but (a) it can be split across multiple enemies, and more importantly, (b) it gives you more changes to land a hit for other effects, like Stunning Strike or Hurricane Strike. By level 10, if the monk only has a 50% chance of hitting his target's AC, he can attack four times and has a 93% chance of landing at least one (weak) blow - but if that blow is a Stunning Strike, it can still be quite important. So basically, it's the best parts of Whirlwind Attack, dual-wielding, and DS all in one. (The downside is that you can't use it with anything but unarmed attacks, and it does slightly less damage than DS against enemies with resistance.)

5. I'm also not completely sure that Mighty Exertion is supposed to work with grapples and stuff. Is a "contest" a kind of "check"? If so, this is indeed a very nice maneuver; if not, it's cool for out-of-combat stuff (smashing a door open, etc) but not so great in combat.

I agree with most of your other ratings (except maybe Opportunist). Monks get some very cool class-specific maneuvers, and in fact I can't imagine a monk dipping into any of the NON-specific maneuvers given how few he gets. But if you're a fighter, it seems like there are a couple first-class maneuvers that are almost mandatory, a handful of good ones, and then some very situational ones you might dip into once you run out of cool stuff by level 8 or 10. (Seriously, who's taking Vault over Parry or Spring Attack?)
 
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Kinak

First Post
I was thinking about Parry/Protect and Deadly Strike some more and decided to break it down mathematically. As with any damage calculation, it only gives us a rough ballpark.

If we take Party Damage / Monster Damage as the measurement, the comparison looks like:
(Party Damage + Expertise) / Monster Damage for Deady Strike
Party Damage / (Monster Damage - Expertise) for Parry/Protect

If you solve those out for Monster Damage:
Monster Damage = Party Damage + Expertise

So, any time the enemies' damage is greater than what the best your party can do (including Deadly Strike), Deadly Strike is the better option. Below that line, Parry and Protect are the better options.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

Stalker0

Legend
3. I think you're underrating the "mook-killer" powers.

4. You're also underestimating Flurry of Blows quite a bit, IMHO...

5. I'm also not completely sure that Mighty Exertion is supposed to work with grapples and stuff. Is a "contest" a kind of "check"?



3) Here is the other question, how mookish will mooks be? For example, at 10th level my mook killers will do 1d10 points of damage. How much will a 10th level mook have? If its even just 5 hp, that means I have only a 50% chance to kill him (after the percentage chance to actual hit him).

4) I think you make some good points here. We will need to see how many riders you can put on an attack.

5) I checked and grapple, push, and grab all say "strength check" so there is no reason mighty exertion could not be used.
 

Connorsrpg

Adventurer
Glancing Blow

Don't forget this is much mroe effective now, as you don't need to 'roll' a 10 or higher - your roll simply needs to hit 10 or higher now.

So with +6 to hit, you can use it on a roll of 4+ when you miss. Much better than its earlier iteration where there was hardly a call to use it.
 

tuxgeo

Adventurer
< snip >
Vault (D): Again, the randomness kills you here. If I'm going to make a jump I want consistency not randomness. And beyond that this is exceptional situational. It only avoided an F because there are so few ways to increase your jump because it's not a skill. < snip >

Better yet: Eliminate the "Vault" maneuver and create an adjustment mechanism that anyone can take, including casters, to increase jumps. Make that mechanism be part of the basic movement mechanics; then the Vault maneuver wouldn't be needed.

Maybe: If hustling, add 3 to your jump result, which is feet for long jumps and inches for high jumps. (The current Jump rules say you're using a 10 foot walk, after all, so you should be able to jump farther if you run, right?)

Or Maybe: Have a +2 "technique" bonus available if you have practiced jumping before, and you are jumping when not threatened. (Or is that a circumstance bonus?)
 

ren1999

First Post
I just read the Monk maneuvers so I won't comment on those yet. I agree with your Deadly Strike, Parry and Protect comments.

I also agree with your Situational Manuvers versus the hardcore increase damage during your action or reduce damage during your reaction Maneuvers.

I see the XD for multiple lower damage attacks or XD to saves as having the greatest potential.
 

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