Standard DM behavior?

[Janx]

This is one of the reasons it's important to keep things in context. The DMG does say that anything under the GP limit is "most likely" available on page 137 under the topic of Community Wealth and Population. But the topic on Magic Items on page 142 says that magic items may be available in markets and shops "occasionally".

It's important to consider when the DMG (and other rules) are speaking most generally and when more specific guidelines should apply (specific usually trumps general) and to hold firm when a player pulls a particular statement out of context in an effort to get that oddball magic item.

3e gets a lot of blame for the magic shop issue, but nuts to that. The advice to the DM is there to allow shopping but to make it reasonably low level, uncommon, rare, or significant. The fact that plenty of specific campaigns and DMs haven't followed that advice, and that many DMs have not done so since the days of 1e, is not the fault of 3e in the slightest.

This post gets to the other heart of the matter. I definitely am not trying to convince you that every shop has a +1 thundering kukri.

I wouldn't expect every weapon shop to have every non-magic weapon listed in the PH. I wouldn't expect every magic shop to have every magic item listed beneath a certain value. That belies logic. Even though WalMart is fed by a massive supply chain, they do NOT all see the same stuff. And that's a chain that TRIES to sell all the same stuff.

I am saying that if you play in a world where the PCs have extra items, and they face plenty of foes with items, and there's plenty of NPCs they should not attack in cities that have items, then there is justification for a magic shop. With each shop having a limited selection of items currently available.


It sounds like 4e has some weird guidelines on item availability that contradict what sounds like a low magic, but heroic campaign setting. I think billd91 covers that.

 

[Barastrondo]

That is my perception also; humility is not tied to the "power level" -- whether we're talking about wuxia novels, myths, fantasy, oral tradition or epics.

It really makes for some interesting variance, too! When you have Sun freakin' Wukong as an emblem of humility toward the end of Journey for the West, that's pretty impressive.

Orlando Furioso does have elements associated with fantasy works, and it has influenced fantasy authors and works of "magical realism", but I wouldn't personally regard Orlando Furioso into the fantasy genre, or as a myth; it's really an epic poem based on 'Song of Roland' and a "sequel" to Orlando in Love (just as I wouldn't regard the adventures of Baron Munchausen or, say, Italo Calvino's works, as fantasy).

That's true. I tend to lump it together with the myth and fantasy, even though it's somewhere between, at least in terms of inspirational sources. On the other hand, Calvino's work I think merits the "fantasy" descriptor -- it's just that it's so purely literary in execution that it doesn't fit as "genre fiction," you know?

Hmmm... it's been a while since I read Beowulf, but I have the distinct feeling that he wasn't exactly a humble peasant hero, and for the large part his downfall was due to his own hubris, i.e. exaggarated sense of his own abilities. He did fight the dragon to protect his people, out of bravery and sense of duty, though. And, as far as I can recall Ruggiero, Orlando et al. are all characters from the era of chivalric romance, and display those very qualities (questing knights/warriors that seem to possess superhuman talents) that Cervantes later satiricized in Don Quixote. That is not to say that you wouldn't have a point; indeed, literature has a score of protagonists that don't start out as humble farmboys, and it's not a sign of "badwrongfun" if a novel or a game takes a more "heroic" approach to protagonists, or whether it's about a tragic or happy ending (BTW, if you yet haven't tried it, I'll recommed reading and trying 'Polaris' from Tao Games -- it's so damn well-written and well-designed that I'd wish every gamer out there would try it at least once in his/her life).

It depends on your take on Beowulf whether he shows hubris or not; I think you can easily make the case that he knows he's going to die but he goes out to fight because it's the right thing to do. The work shows its Christian influence, and the courage of Christ and various martyrs is, I think, influential on the idea of a hero who dies because he cannot turn away to save himself, not because he is filled with pride. On the other hand, boasting is absolutely part of the culture, so Beowulf doesn't merit being described as "humble." It's a borderline case.

I'll have a look out for Polaris. Thanks for the recommendation!

Very true; it's becoming a trend in contemporary works of popular culture (movies, novels, comic books, games). Some of them even combine the both aspects; the hero has a greater destiny to fulfill, and in all appearances starts out "small" although he/she may very well possess superhuman powers and/or learning capacity, but does not initially remember or grasp how to harness or wield those powers (e.g. Dragonball Z, Naruto, Wheel of Time, Eragon and so on). Effectively, the reader is told that there is "more than meets the eye" in the protagonist, and a lot of the excitement comes from following this process as the young protagonist slowly (or even in some works, quickly) outranks his/her elders in terms of power and skill. It's enjoyable for me, too, but I don't know if I like it in fantasy RPGs. Again, this is purely a matter of taste.

Heh. I actually feel kind of the same way, but the RPG mechanic it reminds me of is the pace of leveling. I personally prefer the idea of starting strong (as in 4e, a superheroic game, or an earlier edition of D&D where you start at 3rd or 5th level), and then having a fairly modest pace of character advancement. I'd sort of prefer to have the veteran of a few skirmishes who starts the game in his 20s and 30s and maybe takes ten years to get up to 20th level (or whatever the equivalent is). Starting as a teenage farmboy and hitting 20th level before you're 20 is where I start to boggle. To some extent, I think starting strong in the fantasy genre is an idea I've come to embrace more just on account of the "8th level before I'm out of my teens" characters I've seen in D&D...

 

[Dausuul]

10%, 1%, whatever. I'm talking about the concept that leveled people are likely to have magic items appropriate to their level (because they can take them from lesser leveled, and defend them from others).

This only establishes that leveled people will control a large percentage of the magic item supply. It says nothing about the size of that supply. If there is one magic item in the world, odds are that the highest-level character in the world has it, but there's still only one magic item.

Moreover, you're assuming that these leveled people want to sell their items. If nobody wants to sell - or if nobody wants to sell at a price buyers are willing to pay - then there is no supply.

The advice to the DM is there to allow shopping but to make it reasonably low level, uncommon, rare, or significant. The fact that plenty of specific campaigns and DMs haven't followed that advice, and that many DMs have not done so since the days of 1e, is not the fault of 3e in the slightest.

That's a lot of work for what I consider very little return. I don't feel like working up an elaborate system to figure out what items are available in the shop when.

Plus I hate the flavor implication of magic shops; namely, that magic is so commonplace, and so safe and predictable, that people can set up shops that trade in magic items without being a) shut down by the local law, b) ganked by people looking to steal their stuff, or c) killed by their own inventory.

(And yes, I think item c) should be a very real danger.)

Hence, I don't have magic shops in my game world. The only way you buy a magic item in my game is to pay the iron price.

 

[Janx]

That's a lot of work for what I consider very little return. I don't feel like working up an elaborate system to figure out what items are available in the shop when.

Plus I hate the flavor implication of magic shops; namely, that magic is so commonplace, and so safe and predictable, that people can set up shops that trade in magic items without being a) shut down by the local law, b) ganked by people looking to steal their stuff, or c) killed by their own inventory.

(And yes, I think item c) should be a very real danger.)

Hence, I don't have magic shops in my game world. The only way you buy an item in my game is to pay the iron price.

I'll accept A & B as reasons to disuade a magic shop.

C seems unlikely. I don't have any items on my PCs that can kill them, why would any in a magic shop be different? Yes, I know that one mis-identified cursed item can cause some trouble, but that's an extreme. I don't think there'd really be that many cursed items (heck, they never come up when I roll for treasure).

Community laws that affect trading and such are very realistic. It used to be considered a sin to charge interest on loans (you were making money, but not working to earn it). Prices used to be decreed static (despite supply or demand). This is where black markets arise, to skirt the laws, because demand still exists.

Basically, to support "no magic shops" I want to see good explanations for why they would be discouraged in the community. Not just "the DM hates magic shops so he says they don't exist".

 

[ExploderWizard]

Basically, to support "no magic shops" I want to see good explanations for why they would be discouraged in the community. Not just "the DM hates magic shops so he says they don't exist".

In a world where magic is common, then shops might certainly exist. The types of items mostly sold would be healing potions, fertility magic, cures for disease, animated tools that did mundane tasks such as brooms, shovels, and even plows.

If a fantasy world models historical medieval structure at all then shops selling loads of lethal, combat enhancing weaponry to the public would not be tolerated. Heck, the sale of normal weapons would be regulated.

The types of items adventurers want enhance the making of mischief and the local ruler would probably keep such items for him/her self or loyal retainers rather than let a possibly dissatisfied populace have access to them.

Magic could be good for the community, but dangerous magic not so much.

 

[Ariosto]

I wouldn't expect every weapon shop to have every non-magic weapon listed in the PH.

That's close enough to the magic availability at issue in the OP, which bypasses even the formality of visiting a shop. The opposite extreme, having no commerce in magic at all, has been brought up -- but it is hardly the only alternative!

 

[Dausuul]

I'll accept A & B as reasons to disuade a magic shop.

C seems unlikely. I don't have any items on my PCs that can kill them, why would any in a magic shop be different? Yes, I know that one mis-identified cursed item can cause some trouble, but that's an extreme. I don't think there'd really be that many cursed items (heck, they never come up when I roll for treasure).

An item doesn't have to be cursed per se to be dangerous. I don't hold with the idea that magic is clean and safe and technological. I consider magic a dangerous force with a will of its own.

A magic merchant with dozens or hundreds of items for sale... if you ask me, at least one of those items is going to decide it doesn't like being bought and sold like a sack of grain, and it's going to bring down retribution on the head of the fool who's trying to make a quick gold piece off it. And there are quite a few magic items that trail chaos and disaster in their wake wherever they go.

If you want to know why PCs seldom have this problem, I reply that PCs win their magical treasure in battle and use it themselves, which is generally less objectionable; and chaos and disaster follow PCs everywhere anyway.

(Of course, I also subscribe to the idea of a relatively low-magic setting. I'm very interested in the DMG2 rules for removing the requirement of magic items.)

 

[Rel]

One thing I think is worth pointing out, at least in regards to 4e, is how easy it is to make magic items "by the RAW". There is only one ritual required to create any magic item you want (apart from Potions, which require a separate ritual). And that ritual is only level 4.

The cost for doing so is components equal to the cost of the magic item's price. And it takes only one hour.

I'm not suggesting this implies that there would be magic item shops on every corner where you could buy a +1 Thundering Kukri. But by the RAW if you've got the components then anybody with the ritual can make you a +1 Thundering Kukri for the normal cost to buy one. And they can do it in one hour. So instead of magic item shops you'd have magic item crafters from whom you'd commission the crafting of the item you want.

Most of the time, provided that the PC's can get their hands on the Enchant Magic Item ritual, they should be their own mobile magic shop. It's probably an interesting question as to what happens when they start selling the gear they have outleveled. But that's not going to have a direct impact on item availability for the PC's once they get the ritual.


For the record, I don't play this by the RAW. In my campaign, there is a separate and unique formula for each magic item (the formula for a +1 weapon is different from that of a +1 Thundering weapon is different than that of a +1 Flaming weapon). If you use the base Enchant Magic Item ritual then you must pay 150% of the item's cost in components (the brute force method). If you have the correct ritual for the item you want to create then you pay 75% of the item's cost in components. And components are not available in unlimited quantities and certain items require very specific components that would result in the PC's needing to go on a quest to obtain those before the item in question could be crafted.

 

[pawsplay]

In my 3.5 campaign, I put the PCs in contact with a plane-traveling Mercane broker. They can freely buy most magic items, at least given enough time, but I reserve the right to say, "No, he would not have one of those. That's preposterous." Any time they bump into him, he always has a selection of oddities he's trying to unload. In my campaign world as a whole, magic item buying and selling is not a huge enterprise. I keep virtually all my cities under 25,000 except for a few capitals. Even in the town ruled by a wizard's council, I decided that only minor magic items were readily available. The sale of magic weapons or wands of fireball tends to be a gray market operation similar to buying a grenade launcher in the modern day. Scrolls of animate dead... are illegal in most places. The other places, you wouldn't want to go there. That's how I basically handle the 100,000 gp items, I feel that high level PCs have entered a new elite realm where they can travel the planes or swap treasure stories with eldritch and powerful beings to know where to look for various artifacts and items. In some campaigns I might have something like Sigil as a place you might shop for serious hardware, but it's not thematic for every campaign. In my current game, sellers of magic items appear out of nowhere in major towns, often obviously led by hearing rumors of the PCs being in the area. Mercane appear at midnight and vanish before daybreak, Janni carvans travel the world selling wonders, the local wizards guild helps the PCs make a connection with a half-dragon merchant, etc.