Star Paladin Hybrid

[Eternal54]

Hello Everyone.

I am trying to make a Cha. Paladin / Cha. Starpact Warlock Hybrid.

I figure taking up the swordmage feat Blade Initiate would allow me to still use a long sword but get the implement bonus from it for my warlock spells.

Is this possible? If so, the character builder is not showing the bonus to attack for my spells, even after i equip a longsword + 2.

Could someone help?

 

[1of3]

I figure taking up the swordmage feat Blade Initiate would allow me to still use a long sword but get the implement bonus from it for my warlock spells.

Sorry, it doesn't. The MC feats allow you to use the named implement with powers of their class. You basically get that class's Implement feature.

It's just that they switched the wording after PHB1. The wording in PHB1 was more clear, but all MC work in the same way.

There is the "Arcane Implement Proficiency" feat, which allows what you're up to.

 

[sev]

^ er, yeah, what 1of3 said.

[edited for unnecessary-ness]

 

[Eternal54]

Got it! Thank you!

 

[cdrcjsn]

Also certain swords are able to be used as arcane implements and you can use those.

A pact blade for one can be any light weapon (rapier, shortsword).

There's a paragon level one that can be any heavy sword (forget its name, but it's one of the ones that's part of an item set in AV2).

 

[Plulop]

Actually, the gentleman is incorrect. Hybrids can use the implements of any of their classes for any of their powers, and additionally the wording of Blade Initiate (Swordmage multiclass) holds no such provision to the contrary, saying only that you can "use swordmage implements." In this case, being a hybrid is the specific that trumps the general "implement" rules... since if the character was not a hybrid, he would be absolutely correct.

There IS, however, some debate as to whether or not Arcane Implement Proficiency allows a Warlock|Paladin to use a heavy blade for all powers, since AIP states that you can "use the implement for your arcane powers." It seems pretty clear RAI that you can, though, since even specific enchantments for class or power-source specific channeling work for hybrids (like Bradaman's Weapon, which is the set item that the preceding gentleman refers to, or at least a comparable one) which allows "Divine characters to use it as a holy symbol for Divine powers..." but which works fine for warlock powers in the CB on a hybrid.

The fact that AIP currently DOESN'T work "properly" is something I filed a bug report on in the Character Builder just the other day, hence the debate.

Oh, and howdy there, everyone!

 

[mkill]

Now that the implement issue is answered, what exactly is the benefit of a Paladin / Star Pact Warlock combination?

Both Paladin and Star Pact Warlock are notorious for multiple attribute dependency issues, one for trying to keep Str/(Con)/Wis/Cha up, the other Con/Int/Cha. How is that supposed to work? So Charisma main stat, dump Dex, but then!?

Your hybrid talent is eaten up to get the Paladin armor proficiencies (I assume).

Your Hybrid Divine Challenge deals almost no damage and can be ignored by most monsters. Of course you can ignore Divine Challenge and concentrate on powers that grant Divine Sanction, but that's another wasted class feature.

Why Star Pact? Dire Radiance is pretty useless for a Defender, as because you want monsters to stay close, not punish them for it. I guess you want to go Eldritch Strike, but then Star Pact is unnecessary. You don't gain the Pact Boon either, because Hybrid Talent is necessary elsewhere, but then a piddly +1 to hit that you need to use immediately isn't exactly stellar anyway.

Unless there is some ubercombo that I missed, I just don't get how this character is useful in any way. Your Charisma-Paladin part wants you to collect as many foes around you as possible to fry them with close bursts and deal divine sanction, but then you can't use your ranged Warlock powers without eating several opportunity attacks. You're a Striker / Defender with a gimped mark and mediorcre damage, and can fill neither role properly.

There is one thing I see here and that is the option to go Morninglord and abuse radiant vulnerability (Star Pact has tons of radiant attacks). However, that will only become viable from 16th level, and there are easier ways to get there.

And before anybody says "it's a pure RP concept", how do the following match:
Star Pact
You have mastered the astrologer’s art, learning the secret names of the stars and gazing into the Far Realm beyond, gaining great power thereby. You can call upon powers that madden or terrify your enemies, manipulate chance and fate, or scour your foes with icy banes and curses drawn from beyond the night sky.

Paladins are indomitable warriors who’ve pledged their prowess to something greater than themselves. Paladins smite enemies with divine authority, bolster the courage of nearby companions, and radiate as if a beacon of inextinguishable hope. Paladins are transfigured on the field of battle, exemplars of divine ethos in action.

That must be a pretty shrewd deity that allows its servants to dabble in arcane arts to call upon ancient, terrifying beings from far beyond the divine realms.

 

[Plulop]

Ultimately the combination excels at creating win/win scenarios for itself, and is currently decently supported feat-wise too.

Many feats benefit the use of radiance and radiant vulnerability, but there are also several specific feats for paladin|warlocks that make the build attractive.
Crimson Legionnaire allows you to deal d10's in Warlock's Curse damage when the target is under your Divine Challenge, and Crimson Fire gives you a bonus to paladin damage against cursed foes. White Lotus feats also go a long way towards creating lose/lose scenarios for your enemy. Stat-wise, you can have a solid character with 18 Con, 16 Cha, and 12 in Int and Wis without missing out too much at all... and that's a human, who only gets one stat boost. Finally, there's Dire Radiance itself, which can potentially outdamage any other at-will in the game, since the enemy takes the full whack again if he moves towards you!

An example, then: The Paladin|Warlock opens with Divine Challenge and Warlock's Curse on a nearby foe (within 5 squares.) He then powers off Dire Radiance, dealing 1d6+4 radiant damage + 1d6 curse damage (or 1d10, if he has Crimson Legionnaire already.) Thanks to the challenge, the baddy can now try to make an attack with -2 and eat 3 radiant damage automatically... and he'd better hope he can make it without moving closer to the Paladin, or he'll eat 1d6+4 radiant again whether he attacks or not. If he DOES attack the Paladin, he'll take 4 radiant damage (if the Paladin took White Lotus Riposte already).

What you have is a character who makes a superb off-tank, but a mediocre tank. Sure, he's tough, but the nerf to the Divine Challenge means that the enemy has less incentive to attack the Pal|Warlock than his allies... assuming it can, without eating OA's or moving closer. The Pal'lock himself can deal striker damage with little personal risk, and if he DOES get attacked... well, he's got the some of the best AC around to deal with it.

Of course, if the Pal'lock can place a Divine Sanction... that's a whole different story, because the same penalties apply, with the bonus that the radiant damage from the Sanction wasn't adjusted for hybrids. You still get the original 3+CHA at 1st-10th, with increments thereafter, so that makes you just as solid a threat as a standard Chaladin (but not a Baladin with Mighty Challenge, of course.)

That's why I'M building one, anyway. And it also works thematically within the world of the campaign; the Church sanctions paladins, but some also explore forgotten knowledge in search of mysteries the gods have yet to reveal. If something whispers back, and seems to bear many of the same hallmarks as the gods (radiance, baby)... well, it's easy to get confused, isn't it? Good plot material there, I think.

Just my two cents, anyway.

 

[Eternal54]

The Paladin/Star pact hybrid would offer me a good deal of versatility and a play style I think would be very fun.

At lvl 4 I could have an AC of 23 with no feats to boost. If I took the combat casting feat and improved OA AC feat (cant recall the names of these at the moment) My AC vs OA when casting in melee would jump to 29, making me very hard to hit. Also the Crimson Legion (again not sure if in fact called this) feat would give me d10 curse damage against an enemy under my divine challange.

I could play this by keeping a short distance between myself and our fighters target. Challange/Curse him and hit for 2d10+5 w/ Eld. Blast. The target can now stay and fight the fighter w/ -2 to attak and take 5 damage for doing so, or move to me and provoke an OA from our fighter. If I become his new target than the fighter can move in with mark and we rinse/repeat.

Also soloing a creature would be a very funny. Run into melee, challange/Curse, Eyebite. If Eyebite hits target will seek other target and take damage for it or "run into me" and make an attack with -5 against my already high defenses.

Essentialy I see this character as a war caster, dealing solid damage while not being afraid of getting up close and personal. Sprinkle in a few healing powers and some teleportation and I think he would be very fun to play. His stats are based off Cha. Wis. as I only want his more Strikerish abilities from the Lock side and Int tends to give you the more Controllerish properties of the power.

Flavor wise he will be a follower of Ioun, where his need for knowledge drives him to make a pact with the stars in order to learn of its arcane potency and because the desciption of star pact powers often refer to fate and Ioun holds domain over prophecy. It may just be me but I see a storng connection where I could build a great story. Thematically both have several Radiant abilities and helps tie in the two in game and story.

Well I hope this explains why and how I plan to create this character. Also if anyone has any feedback on it I would be happy to hear it!

 

[sev]

Actually, the gentleman is incorrect. Hybrids can use the implements of any of their classes for any of their powers, and additionally the wording of Blade Initiate (Swordmage multiclass) holds no such provision to the contrary, saying only that you can "use swordmage implements." In this case, being a hybrid is the specific that trumps the general "implement" rules... since if the character was not a hybrid, he would be absolutely correct.

"You can wield the implements of both classes," says the hybrid rules. It does not extend to classes chosen via the multiclassing feat.