Star Wars d20: Consular vs. Guardian

[Menexenus]

Hi everyone. I just recently decided to start a Star Wars d20 game using the Wizards of the Coast Revised Edition rules. Keep in mind, my players and I are used to D&D. This may help you answer our questions.

Today I was helping one of the players with Character creation. And he asked a question I couldn't answer: Why would anyone ever pick a Jedi Consular? My player pointed out that Guardians have better vitality points and a better base attack progression. Saves are not that different. The feat progression (at least through 4th level) is identical between the 2 classes. Consulars do get access to a few extra mundane skills than Guardians, but let's face it: those skill points are probably going to end up going into Force skills, not mundane skills. Both classes get access to the same Force skills (which was surprising to me). And the differences between the classes' defense and reputation bonuses are very minor and seem to cancel each other out.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that Consulars get above Guardians are 2 measly skill points per level. That benefit does not seem to be worth the comparative loss of vitality points and base attack bonus. I realize that at 5th level a 2 point per level bonus translates into a difference of 16 skill points, but still...

Have I missed something? Are the Consular and Guardian classes balanced?

P.S. Sorry if this question has been beaten to death. That's what happens when you're a newbie like me: you ask the same questions everyone has already asked. But if you can spare the time, I'd still appreciate your perspective. Thanks.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

Guardians don't make very good diplomats. They're strong with combat, and that really is about it. Consulars are the less combat focussed Jedi, and that extra 2 skill points is VERY good when you have to spend them between both Force Skills and regular skills. One cannot survive on Force Skills alone.

They are very balanced with each other, but they are also very different approaches. If your players want to play Jedi for the lightsaber, they aren't going to see anything good about the Consular. Think of it like the relationship between the Noble and the Soldier. Essentially, the Consular is the Jedi Noble, with the Guardian being the Jedi Soldier.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

I found the differences to be a little bland myself, but I'm coming in from the position that I'd like to run a jedi academy game in the Old Republic, and the jedi classes seem very similar.

But, in the end, skill points and character builds will make them quite different. A Consular character will probably work to try and get a higher int for more skill points ... if you think of it from an Int standpoint, 2 points per level is an effective +4 Int in terms of skill points. Added to that the Consular probably having a higher Int and he'll end up with more skills.

--fje

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I found the differences to be a little bland myself, but I'm coming in from the position that I'd like to run a jedi academy game in the Old Republic, and the jedi classes seem very similar.

I'm running a 6 player Tales of the Jedi era game right here on ENWorld, with a good mix of both Consulars and Guardians. The differences aren't bland at all...and besides, if one builds a Jedi based soley on stats, the class isn't the problem.

 

[Menexenus]

So, as you all know, I'm concerned about the Balance between Consulars and Guardians. I could give Consulars an extra skill point or 2 per level. But I'm more inclined to simply restrict Guardians from taking certain Force Skills. That seems to fit well with the fact that Guardians get fewer mundane skills than Consulars. Why shouldn't they also have access to fewer Force skills? After all, they are focusing on combat rather than the finer points of wielding the Force.

So first, I'm wondering if anyone has tried either of these tweaks (i.e., giving Consulars more skill points and/or restricting Guardians from some Force skills). If you did, please let me know how they went. If you have other suggestions of successful tweaks you've tried, I'd be curiuos to hear about those as well.

Thanks!

 

[Eagle of the Star]

I don't think the Consular class is weaker at all. Speaking as an inveterate powergamer (and one who plays with other powergamers), the Consular class can do stuff that a Guardian could never dream of.
Not only are there two extra skill points, but there are more class skills (and these become very important when qualifying for some of the better Jedi prestige classes -- I once ran a Miraluka consular who qualified for Jedi Investigator in only a couple levels). Also the saves are different, and in a Jedi-themed campaign the stronger Will save can be critical.
All you really lose are base attack and lightsaber damage -- so play a guardian if you define Jedi as lightsaber-wielding -- play a consular otherwise.

 

[Odhanan]

The feat progression (at least through 4th level) is identical between the 2 classes. Consulars do get access to a few extra mundane skills than Guardians, but let's face it: those skill points are probably going to end up going into Force skills, not mundane skills.

That's precisely it. Consulars are better with Force Powers and possibly better with skills because they have more skill points and more skills. When you see the result at higher level, and when you think about the possibilities in terms of multiclassing (like the Miraluka investigator example just above) you begin to wonder why would anyone choose a guardian!

I hapen to play a human Jedi guardian because my character concept is a lightsaber master (with Jedi Weapon Master and Master Duelist levels). I also have a Kel Dor Jedi Investigator... with levels of Consular. It's exactly like Eagle says. For everything else than lightsaber, the Consular is better.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

Heh. On first glance, I think everybody would say Guardian is better.

I say this because I have 7 people who want to join my SWRPG game. 6 who want to play Jedi. 4 who want to play Guardians.

1 Droid
1 Consular
1 Sentinel (Possibly changing to Guardian, though)
4 Guardians

Oi.

--fje

 

[The_Gneech]

Jedi Guardians make great lightsaber duelists ... but they aren't much good for anything else. Before you scoff as "a mere 2 skill points per level" consider also that a Jedi Counsular will probably have a higher Int (giving them still more skill points), and quite possibly a higher Wis and Cha (giving them better Force skill bonuses overall).

I have an 8th level Jedi Guardian, who is a terror with a lightsaber and fairly handy with Move Object ... and that's it. He can't do the mind trick worth beans, and he certainly can't do things like Dissipate Energy, Farseeing, etc. If I had to rebuild this character, knowing what I know now, I might very well make him a Counsular instead so that he was more well-rounded. I've got plenty of BAB, I'd gladly trade some for a few skill points at this stage. (Alas, you can't multiclass between Guardian and Counsular, or I'd do that!)

If you want access to cool powers beyond cutting things up, a Jedi Counsular is a lot more useful.

-The Gneech

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

I say this because I have 7 people who want to join my SWRPG game. 6 who want to play Jedi. 4 who want to play Guardians.

It doesn't help that there is a grand total of one major-character Consular in the movies; all of the other Jedi are Guardians.