[Star Wars] Saga Edition's New Damage System

[candidus_cogitens]

The Jedi Counseling article suggests that one of the primary reasons for the change was to make it less deadly. How exactly does it do that? I'm missing something. When it comes down to how much damage your character can take, there's not much difference between the vitality points and hit points. It seems to me that the main difference between the two systems has to do with how long it takes to heal from injuries between encounters. (Vitality points come back very quickly and wound points represent more serious damage that takes longer to heal. Hit points doesn't distinguish.)

Can someone help me understand how hp is less lethal than vp?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The Jedi Counseling article suggests that one of the primary reasons for the change was to make it less deadly. How exactly does it do that? I'm missing something. When it comes down to how much damage your character can take, there's not much difference between the vitality points and hit points. It seems to me that the main difference between the two systems has to do with how long it takes to heal from injuries between encounters. (Vitality points come back very quickly and wound points represent more serious damage that takes longer to heal. Hit points doesn't distinguish.)

Can someone help me understand how hp is less lethal than vp?

If you get a (confirmed) critical hit in the WP/VP system, there is a reasonable chance that your WP are reduced to a deadly value, despite still having a lot of vp. The deadliness lies in the fact that it is too unpredictable. In a hit point system, you know that you only have 20 hit points and that a lucky hit with a 3d6 blaster rifle might kill you. In a WP/VP system, you might have 150 hit points and are suddenly down.

The deadliness lies in the factor that the hit point system allows you to take some "risks", while the VP/WP system just gives you the illusion that you could take risk. If you play very carefully in the WP/VP system, that might not matter that much, but keep in mind that you're wanting a heroic/cinematic feel in a game like Starwars - you want to be able to take some risks, (just not all the time, therefore you at least lose hit points).


A system that uses a "attack save" and no hitpoints has the same problem - you can't really predict whether you'll survive the next attack or not, and you are at the constant risk of a deadly hit.
There are some systems in which this works better, but they usually have a very different dice resolution (like Shadowrun with its multiple d6 and getting enough successes, which implicitly creates a ore "reliable" probability curve), or their damage resolution is a bit more complex (like Torg with its damage values and logarithmic scales for wound and shock point damage, and its possibility mechanic).

 

[RodneyThompson]

I'd like to chime in here. People keep using the phrase "death spiral" in association with the condition track. It's not quite like that. Over the course of an encounter there are just as many things that can move you up the condition track as can move you down. So, if you take a big hit and bump down the track, you've got an option that can bump yourself back up, while other characters might be able to do things to help you (the noble, for example, has a talent that lets him move someone else back up the condition track once per encounter). It's more of an up-and-down sliding scale than a death spiral.

Things do get pretty dangerous at the -5 step, though. Fortunately, if you get pushed to the end of the track without losing all your hit points you are not killed -- you are just helpless and unsconscious. It's sort of our compromise between the insane heroics of the movies (Luke taking on Jabba's entire retinue in Return of the Jedi, for example) and the perils of blaster-and-lightsaber combat.

 

[eyebeams]

I'd like to chime in here. People keep using the phrase "death spiral" in association with the condition track. It's not quite like that. Over the course of an encounter there are just as many things that can move you up the condition track as can move you down. So, if you take a big hit and bump down the track, you've got an option that can bump yourself back up, while other characters might be able to do things to help you (the noble, for example, has a talent that lets him move someone else back up the condition track once per encounter). It's more of an up-and-down sliding scale than a death spiral.

Other death spirals have similar exceptions with various options to ignore or mitigate penalties, but they're still death spirals.

The "helpless but unconscious" result is both a good and bad thing. It basically puts such a character at the total mercy of the GM, since unless the coup de grace rule's been changed, it applies to helpless characters.

As a GM this presents a bit of a dilemma. If I don't have the stormtrooper execute such a PC, I'm obviously fudging tactical play in situations where this would be the thing to do, especially if I follow the classic Star Wars setup and have more of them than the PCs. If I *do* use a coup de grace, everyone at the table knows that as GM, I made a deliberate attempt to execute that character, rather than simply reduce an in game resource like hit points. It feels a bit different than a character with 0 or fewer HP since you've whittled down the character's survival resource first. And lastly, the system encourages unheroic behaviour. As GM, it means I either spend time executing unconscious people or cheating on the PCs' behalf. As a player it means that I'm rewarded for shooting an unconscious bad guy in the face.

The advantage of VP/WP is that even if combat is deadly, it *never* forces the GM to arbitrarily decide that a PC ought to die. WP present a token resource against deadly attacks. *However*, it does have the lethality problem. It's not perfect by any means.

In my house rules I just ask for a Fort save; success shifts WP damage back to VP. This introduces a level-based ability to avoid serious injury without putting me in the position of PC executioner. They always have a level-based capacity to avoid injury as well as quantifiable character resources besides. If they lose that buffer it's fair.

Keep in mind, though, that in a more narrative playstyle early helplessness is good. If there are no serious tactical stakes nobody cares if I let PCs off with a knockout leading to some kind of imprisonment scene in the game or other contrivance. That's all good.

 

[wingsandsword]

As a GM this presents a bit of a dilemma. If I don't have the stormtrooper execute such a PC, I'm obviously fudging tactical play in situations where this would be the thing to do, especially if I follow the classic Star Wars setup and have more of them than the PCs.

Within the context of Star Wars, I wouldn't say that Stormtroopers wouldn't always coup de grace.

They could assume the target is dead and leave them for dead. Of all the people shot down in the movies, how many people are actually coup-de-graced? Stormtroopers didn't move in CDG'ing people on the Tantive IV or on Hoth. When you're hit by a blaster and down, stormies tend to consider you out of the fight (but if you start fighting again or show signs of life, then it's going to hurt).

Or they could arrest the target and take them off for interrogation. This is a very "Star Wars" scenario as the rest of the PC's now have to stage a rescue, or the PC has to escape somehow. In Star Wars campaigns I've played in, there is always at least one "Rescue the captured PC", it even shows up in the movies with great regularity (Rescue Leia from the Death Star, Rescue Han from Jabba, Rescue Obi-Wan on Geonosis, ect. . .)

The idea that everybody always CDG's their fallen foes seems to be a D&Dism to me, not so much a Star Wars thing.

 

[eyebeams]

Within the context of Star Wars, I wouldn't say that Stormtroopers wouldn't always coup de grace.

They could assume the target is dead and leave them for dead. Of all the people shot down in the movies, how many people are actually coup-de-graced? Stormtroopers didn't move in CDG'ing people on the Tantive IV or on Hoth. When you're hit by a blaster and down, stormies tend to consider you out of the fight (but if you start fighting again or show signs of life, then it's going to hurt).

Or they could arrest the target and take them off for interrogation. This is a very "Star Wars" scenario as the rest of the PC's now have to stage a rescue, or the PC has to escape somehow. In Star Wars campaigns I've played in, there is always at least one "Rescue the captured PC", it even shows up in the movies with great regularity (Rescue Leia from the Death Star, Rescue Han from Jabba, Rescue Obi-Wan on Geonosis, ect. . .)

The idea that everybody always CDG's their fallen foes seems to be a D&Dism to me, not so much a Star Wars thing.

Like I said, I'm talking about tactical play, not being true to the genre. Not executing downed characters is a tactical mistake and even though stormtroopers are mooks, they're supposed to be somewhat formidable elites. If the rules allow stormtroopers to shoot people in the face and instantly kill them, appealing to something outside the rules does not really improve things. It also means that as a GM, I cheat players out of winning by their own wits, since their characters can't really die if they're condition-tracked to helplessness.

You're right in that SW characters are always getting imprisoned and such, but that's not a *game* solution -- it's advice to fudge.

 

[wingsandsword]

You're right in that SW characters are always getting imprisoned and such, but that's not a *game* solution -- it's advice to fudge.

It's not fudging, it's following the setting and genre considerations. Making the game like the movies and other source material means the PC's are likely to survive unless they're killed by somebody or something important, if they're hit by a ST they're more likely to be injured and out of the fight for a while but not dead (like Leia at the Battle of Endor).

Yes it is a "game" solution, because with a Star Wars RPG the setting and rules are deeply intertwined, and the mechanics should support the setting. I know it's conventional D&D logic that a roleplaying solution to a mechanical situation is "bad", but Star Wars isn't D&D, and the same axioms don't always apply uniformly, even if it's still a d20 game.

 

[iwatt]

Not executing downed characters is a tactical mistake

I don't agree with this. Barring regeneration, an unconcious character is out of the fight. why waste a full round action and become exposed to AoO for a CdG? I can see somebody putting ane xtra shot into soembody to make sure they'r down, but in the chaos and confusion of battle taking the time to carefully sever somebdoy spine with a plasma bolt isn't a very good idea.

IMGs, my players fear when they drop unconcious not because of CdG, but because of imprisonment.

 

[Remathilis]

The advantage of VP/WP is that even if combat is deadly, it *never* forces the GM to arbitrarily decide that a PC ought to die. WP present a token resource against deadly attacks. *However*, it does have the lethality problem. It's not perfect by any means.

Oh yes it does. Ask me how many times I roll a natural 19 during a lightsaber combat and "didn't confirm" the roll even there was no real chance of him missing on that follow-up attack.

The Problem with V/WP wasn't stormtroopers rolling 3d6 vs. my 12 con scoundrel, it was sith lords rolling 4d8+12 (rage, enhance ability, two-handed use lightsaber) Against my 16 con Jedi Guardian.

Sadly, my experience with V/WP isn't long epic duels like Luke/Vader, Obi-Wan/Anakin, Qui-Gon/Maul or Yoda/Sideous, it was usually Sideous/Mace and those three other Jedi who got there butts handed to them in 1-2 rounds. (the latter being all the PCs but one). It created an atmosphere of either the PCs could walk over weaker challenges by strength of saber alone or if they thought they were in danger, bombard it from space. Certainly not swashbuckling action I've seen in the movies...

 

[D'karr]

DnD in space Wohoo! not.

I know what my first house rule is going to be. Hit Points are one of my major problems with DnD, exporting them into other things that I like makes me like those other things less. People just don't get tough enough to take a hail of arrows when a single arrow was enough to kill them, it just doesn't work for me.

But I don't want to fight in the shade...