D&D 5E Starter set unboxing photos

[Ruin Explorer]

Forget challenge level BS. Are looking at the same ogre I am? That is a 7 HD creature that pounds things to mush. I don't even need a challenge rating to tell me that it would be foolish for a 1st level party to fight it straight up without having a decent plan.

Challenge levels may or may not be complete gibberish. Hit dice don't lie.

Hit dice lie all the time, what are you talking about? That's just gibberish itself. 2E HD frequently bore no relation to the deadliness of a monster. You had 4HD monsters who could wipe unprepared mid-level parties, and 8HD monsters who were barely a threat. Going by HD alone as about as smart as going by CR alone in 3E (i.e. actively misleading).

If CLs are "gibberish" or "bs", then that's a very serious failure of design, because they've allegedly put a lot of effort into them and are allegedly an important DM tool.

Also, what the hell is with people doing this "blame the victim" act, and making out that players totally always choose what the PCs fight and who engages in melee and so on? What is this strange CRPG you've been playing? It's clearly not D&D or any TT RPG I've played... Player stupidity is one thing, but DMs need to have a good tool to measure how dangerous enemies are - and that isn't HD, because a few characteristics can easily mean a low-HD monster is very dangerous, and weak-ass attacks can render a high-HD one, well, non-serious.

 

[LFK]

Sudden thought as I run out the door: what if CR is more akin to Minion/Normal/Elite? Like CR2 7HD = 2 7th level PCs?

Eh, but then Turn Undead keying off CR makes no sense.

 

[WotC_Trevor]

I wouldn't recommend it - from the video, it seems modifying ogres really cheeses off the designers for some reason.

I'm fairly certain Mike was joking at that part - implying that he or one of the guys DMing a game he's in would do something like that.

Edit: And I just saw that two other people beat me to it. Sorry for adding on to the pile there.

 

[Stormonu]

Ok, on the comments about the ogre - let's extrapolate from a semi-real situation: (I'm assuming Cr 2 is similar to the old 3E notion of a challenge for the "typical" party of four - wizard, rogue, fighter, cleric. haven't been keeping up with 5E, so correct the situation as required)

A party of four adventurers, Marty the fighter, Beth the cleric, Riggle the wizard and Black Dougal the rogue have come to the Caves of Chaos. After some initial investigation, they find a cave entrance hidden among some brush and trees from where they can hear a steady rumbling. Peering in, they can make out the bulky form of a ogre asleep amid a pile of furs. In a nearby pile, Marty spies the glint of coins from several large sacks within arms reach of the sleeping ogre. After a hushed exchange, Black Dougal carefully sneaks in, hoping to smuggle one of the sacks of coins out of the cave without awakening the ogre.

As the others watch on, half hidden just beyond the entryway, Black Dougal quietly tiptoes to the sacks, and after tying the half-opened sack of coins shut, hefts it over his shoulder. The shifting coins cause the ogre to squint and grumble in his sleep, but not awaken. Black Dougal long-steps back to the entrance, but just as he steps past the ogre, he inadvertently steps upon leaves blown in through the enterance. The loud snap of leaves causes the ogre's eyes to snap open, and with a gutteral growl, the ogre lumbers to his feet with a snarl of "Thief!" On his lips. Time to roll for initiative!

So, with that long-winded introduction, what are Dougal's chances of surviving this - noting he does have help available to him and the cleric/healing potion healing him back up from negative hit points still counts as "surviving".

Also assuming using the pregen's stats for the characters, if feasible.

 

[TheWriterFantastic™]

Sudden thought as I run out the door: what if CR is more akin to Minion/Normal/Elite? Like CR2 7HD = 2 7th level PCs?

Eh, but then Turn Undead keying off CR makes no sense.

If CR 1/2 represents minions, it would make sense for the cleric to automatically destroy minion threats when they make a successful check to turn undead...

 

[ExploderWizard]

So, with that long-winded introduction, what are Dougal's chances of surviving this - noting he does have help available to him and the cleric/healing potion healing him back up from negative hit points still counts as "surviving".

Also assuming using the pregen's stats for the characters, if feasible.

Dougal is a grease spot.

Cleanup on aisle 4!!!

 

[Sword of Spirit]

(Deleted--didn't feel like weighing in on topic after all)

 

[Stormonu]

Dougal is a grease spot.

Cleanup on aisle 4!!!

probably, but anybody care to do a round-by-round "dissection"?

 

[ExploderWizard]

probably, but anybody care to do a round-by-round "dissection"?

We have the ogre statblock. Has a good detailed copy of the pregen rogue sheet been released yet?

 

[BryonD]

This is something I'm concerned about too.

4E's encounter building was wonderful. It meant that I didn't have to think about whether this monster was going to randomly wipe the floor with the PCs, to analyze it's abilities to see what might suddenly blow up and so on. It really was a very reliable guide (especially post MM3-math) to how hard an encounter would be for them.

3E's CR was actively detrimental to my judgement. In 2E I could stare at a monster and have a good idea of how dangerous it might be, and whilst that took time and was annoying, and sometimes ended in fudging, it was only moderately bad. 3E, though, I had to do everything I did in 2E, but I also had to slowly train myself to ignore the CRs which the game insisted worked, because they were desperately misleading. A monster that could easily wipe out a party of equal level might have the same CR as one which was barely a challenge.

I'm sure 5E will beat 3E on this one, but I really hope they come somewhere near 4E, too, as it was a tremendous asset to me as a DM, reducing prep time, encouraging me to use monsters unfamiliar to me, and having a reliable idea of the effect of an encounter on the PCs, which allowed for better adventure planning and so on. If you're right and they also act as "You must be at least this tall..."-type measurements, great.

I agree with you on 3E. CR sucked. (Or should I say, CR still sucks).

But I do strongly disagree with you on 4E.

Due to recent responses on other topics I'll start with the point that I fully respect other people enjoying different aspects and styles. And I endorse the expectation that WotC strive to provide the best game for everyone.

I see 3E CR as a terrible system, that could easily be ignored. I see the 4E system as a great system for making the math work, but a terrible system for modeling diverse, dynamic population of things to encounter. In great stories the authors are never worried about "balance" or if the math works. "You must be this tall" is a filter that excludes things. I don't want things excluded. I get that excluding things and putting brackets around the limits of things provides reliability and reduced prep time. I respect that. But there is another side and there is merit to not having "you must" or brackets or math as prerequisites for your key building blocks of narrative.

The good thing is that I can ignore CR in 3E and can do the same in any other version. But because the "math works" was so built into 4E it is reflected in the monsters with unsatisfactory results. (again, "for me")

If 5E takes a mechanical "must be this tall" approach to monster design, that will turn off a lot of people.