Statblocks vs adventures: Where's the balance?

[MerricB]

The best way of incorporating this is to have all full page stat blocks in a pull-out appendix to an adventure. This leaves the adventure to adventure stuff and stat blocks to the monster sheet or monster manual if the creature is straight out of the book.

Whenever an adventure wants me to refer to the Monster Manual, I want to scream these days. As few official 4e adventures do, I'm mostly okay. Why is that? Because it's page flipping, and - often - they'll refer to two stat blocks in very different parts of the book. Having to flip between "Zombie" and "Orc" all the time in one encounter isn't that enjoyable.

(Mind you, having the DDi available makes for wonderful reference, though I prefer to avoid using a computer when DMing a printed adventure if I can manage it.)

Having the statblocks in the appendix sometimes works. However, we're still talking about the problems of space: every long statblock eats up the available page count of the product, reducing the space that can be used for the actual adventure.

Cheers!

 

[AeroDm]

This argument could be reworded as, "Monster: How much space are they worth?" and the response would vary, but ultimately the answer is that monsters are worth as much complexity as it takes to make them feel unique and fun to battle. The stat block, then, should take up as much space as it requires to communicate that complexity to the majority of people. For some people this amount of information would be superfluous and some would still desire more.

I don't really think statblocks are an issue of space. If well laid out, I think a stat block is worth every carriage return because monsters are a huge part of the flavor of any encounter. As much as the flavor text tries to evoke the feeling of the flickering torch light, the manner in which the monster fights lends more to the essence of the battle than anything else. They are worth the space if they are done right. The issue, in my mind, is more "how do you do monster right"" and "how do you communicate monsters into text?" than "how many lines of text are monster worth?"

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Whenever an adventure wants me to refer to the Monster Manual, I want to scream these days. As few official 4e adventures do, I'm mostly okay. Why is that? Because it's page flipping, and - often - they'll refer to two stat blocks in very different parts of the book. Having to flip between "Zombie" and "Orc" all the time in one encounter isn't that enjoyable.

This is a good point.

Having the statblocks in the appendix sometimes works. However, we're still talking about the problems of space: every long statblock eats up the available page count of the product, reducing the space that can be used for the actual adventure.

True again but if you have it as a pdf download, I think this becomes the best and most usable at-the-table solution. The appendix stat block is certainly my preferred option in terms of readability and usability.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Jhaelen]

Regarding 3e stat blocks: I really learned to hate them the longer we played. Eventually, I developed a shorthand to add all the information required to play a monster without requiring any lookup during play. But it took me _hours_ to create some of these stat blocks. And I still had the problem that e.g. for high level spellcasters I'd end up with stat blocks that didn't fit on a single page. This lead me to use colouring to high-light the important parts of the stat block and add a (separate) tactics section detailing the powers most likely used in the first couple of rounds. I really don't want to go back there ever again!

Because it's page flipping, and - often - they'll refer to two stat blocks in very different parts of the book. Having to flip between "Zombie" and "Orc" all the time in one encounter isn't that enjoyable.

Yup, that's the one disadvantage: Either encounters have to be restricted to only use monsters that are on the same two-page spread or you have to provide the stat blocks separately in some way...

Having the statblocks in the appendix sometimes works. However, we're still talking about the problems of space: every long statblock eats up the available page count of the product, reducing the space that can be used for the actual adventure.

I really liked what they did for 'The Red Hand of Doom': The monster appendix was released seperately as a pdf! Why did they abandon this excellent idea afterwards? Probably in favour of the delve-style encounter descriptions.

I'm not a fan of condensing 4e stat-blocks as I think it would make them less readable. Using a lot of abbreviations and/or defined terms would counter the goal of not having to memorize anything and having all the required information in one place.

For, say, 90% of the monsters using monster-cards would work: You can usually fit the complete stat block on them (although it might take both sides of the card to do so) and you can arrange them any way you like and still see all monsters participating in an encounter.

Printing stat blocks from the DDI compendium works well too, for much of the same reason. And if WotC manages to provide a useful, working monster builder again, this will probably be the best possible approach:
When DMing a published module I often fiddle with monster blocks, level them up or down, add monsters to encounters or turn solos into elites, etc., etc.

Right now, I typically just pencil in the required changes, but being able to make the changes comfortably in a software tool would clearly be preferable.

 

[Spatula]

* The statblock concentrates on the most common part of D&D combat: weapon combat. Thus, AC, #AT and Damage. The attack bonus is contained within the Hit Dice number - and the lookup tables on the DM screen.

* Spell vs Monster resolution is again handled by a look-up table on the DM screen. (In some ways, Basic D&D got this better by adding a SV: line to show how it saves). In 3E & 4E, you break this out into three actual defenses, but are they really necessary? Do they truly add to the game experience?

Well, in AD&D at least, didn't the monsters had six separate saving throws instead of three? From what I remember they saved as fighters.

Personally I'm not a fan of table lookups (screen or no screen); I want my monster info in one easily-understandable place. Any time I have to look somewhere else, whether it's a screen or another page, is a distraction. 4e generally excels at this, IMO. For brief statblocks, I like how C&C handles them: every monster gets a simple +HD save bonus, with a possible +5 to all physical and/or all mental saves. Also a simple +HD attack bonus.

I agree with the previous posters on the horrors of 3e statblocks. Too much info crammed into too much single-spaced text. When I typed up my own I would bold each header so that I could find stuff easier, but that's only a partial solution. And then there's still the spells... ugh! What's the DC? (later statblocks from WotC fixed this problem at least) vs what save? What effect does it have at the monster's caster level? Is the duration in rounds? How does it modify the monster's stats? Its allies stats?

While monsters with spells were always a potential problem, it was less of one in AD&D. Very few spells had scaling effects that weren't 1 die/level, and very few affected combat stats.

 

[nightraven]

I would suggest loosing your 4E, 3E and 2E books for awhile. Take out (or download) your 1E AD&D or 0E D&D (Gygax) and play for a few sessions. As DMs you will see the VAST majority of what is in todays statblocks actually slows the game down to a crawl, limits the DMs ability to make encounters interesting, and looses the essence of the monster type (which should be a simple thing). After having played all versions, and then going back to 1E AD&D I can tell you everything that came later made monsters (and PCs) into cheap formula gimmick cartoons. The only time a statblock should be more then a few paragraphs is when your describing a broad culture and specifics that are meaningful and interesting (say how orcs organize and live). If a module writer or DM wants to make an orc a tracker in 1E he/she says he's a tracker (and on the spot he makes up some chances to do this or that) -done.

No idiotic 3rd level thief crap (which makes this fellow seem less like a monster and more like a thief).

 

[vagabundo]

Actually, the slowest calculations are HP calculations. 325 - 68 really makes me think about it...!

Why use subtraction for HP calculations?

I keep a note of current HP damage total against each creature and compare it to their bloodied/total HPs. It is additive, easy to see when they are bloodied or dead, and with a bunch of monsters I have noticed an increase in my DM efficiency!!

 

[Wiseblood]

4e could probably run as a five level game. Or perhaps as few as one. Since monetsrs are Minions, Standard, Elite and Solo. Monters would only have to be retooled to 1st - 5th level. DMG, HP, AC, Saves, of monsters is based on the characters levels.

For example an Ogre could be a first level solo. Later when the characters are 5th level ogres are 5th level minions. That is an oversimplification but it gets the point across.

That would make the numbers smaller.

The statblock under those rules and current rules could be comressed in the defense dept. The lead defense or defenses are mentioned and evrything that isn't mentioned is a certain amount lower kind of like Trained/Untrained.

Since it sits on the DM side of the screen it doesn't need to be quite as detailed. By that I mean having a specific number for each defense is unneccesary when the main gyst of it is.
'How do these defenses relate to the charachters' ability?"
"Which defenses SHOULD be better on this foe?"

IMO this would compress the statblock a little without damaging the gameplay.

 

[Quickleaf]

Double post

 

[Quickleaf]

One of the great things about 4e in this regard is the handy division of monsters into minions, standards, elites, and solos. IMO a missed opportunity was presenting these mechanical categories differently graphically.

A minion could read like 3 lines of text, like the bracketed stuff from OD&D; it would have one defense, one attack and/or schtik, and not much else. Using the 4e monster stat block to depict a minion is like using a pneumatic tamper to hammer in a nail.

A standard monster would be like a 4e monster but would lack ability scores, any relevant skill would be folded into it's abilities, there would be one high defense noted and the others would be average.

Elites (mini-bosses and named NPCs) would be presented the way they are in 4e... but with fewer wordy powers like the Roper's "tentacle grab" and "stony form" which could be edited down to a line or two each.

Solos would be designed a little differently with a strong tie to the environment and abilities that break the rules. I would look to AngryDM's boss monster ideas for how to present a solo, especially how it's stat block might change during the encounter. IOW solos merit a better tool to depict them.