State of the RPG Industry

[CCamfield]

That does not interest me in the least. These one night games already exist. They are those how to throw a murder mystery party games.

That's one form. They don't have to be like that. You could run a complete adventure in the course of an evening with a simpler system. (Feng Shui, say.) One-shots are just a bit more like convention gaming.

Now, I completely understand what you mean about the appeal of continuity. I feel the same way myself about RPGs (if not books). But a one-night game does not have to be a "murder mystery party".

 

[DaveMage]

If you don't use an adventure, it just goes on your shelf. And it isn't even as good reading as a general sourcebook. Reading room descriptions and what will happen to the party if they do such and such is not as engaging as reading about the history of a Naranjan (the Mindshadows setting) or details of the drow pantheon from Plot & Poison.

I would respectfully disagree with you on this last point. I think this is a matter of personal taste. I enjoy reading adventures as much as I enjoy reading a campaign setting, so I think this kind of comparison is really a personal preference rather than factual.

I have lots of adventures I'll probably never use in full, but I can use a piece of those adventures, even as small a piece as 1 room, in a homebrew campaign. However, if you are correct for the majority, then that could indeed explain why adventures do not sell as well.

 

[woodelf]

That does not interest me in the least. These one night games already exist. They are those how to throw a murder mystery party games.

I don't watch sitcoms because the universe resets between episodes. I prefer dramas where the story continues from week-to-week. I don't like movies because I always want to know what happens next at the end of the movie. Sure, this plot is over, but how do they live happily ever after? There must have been something else that occured that could interest me. I want to invest something in my entertainment that will last more than an hour or two. I tend not to read books that don't have sequels. Maybe I'm different than most people (my wife says I am ) but what you describe is completely uninteresting to me.

Hey, that was your eleventy-eleventh post!

Anyway, they pretty much don't interest me, either. But they *are* an answer to the "can't get the group together on a regular basis" problem that causes a lot of older gamers to stop gaming. However, i contend that the How to Host a Murder, and similar, games lack a crucial element of RPGs--they're not open-ended. While there may be many ways to fail, there is only one successful solution to most of them. They're really more like elaborate puzzles than stripped-down RPGs.

And as for actual RPing--sure, i prefer ongoing stories. But if given the choice between a single night of RPing, and no RPing, i'll take the short, self-contained scenario.

 

[woodelf]

Well, there certainly are varying types of gamers, but I meant to point it out in terms of marketing. Quite consistently represented by sales and trends, the players who purchase and use the books primarily about numbers and rule-crunching tend to be shorter-term players - and, thus, customers. Gaming is generally more of a flash-in-the-pan hobby for them. However, the gamers who are more interested in story and content than numbers ("Fluff" is such a derogotory term for quality writing)

And "crunch" is any less derogatory?

tend to be repeat customers far more than others. Therefore, the companies who consistently sell books with large amounts of story content will have more repeat-buyers of their books. It is commonly known that repeat customers are the backbone of any business.

You see, i'd come to the other conclusion: those who are all about the story have the least use for RPG books, because they can just base their stuff on an episode of a TV show, or a newspaper article, or any other source of plot/character/idea, regardless of it's original form or intended use (and, of course, they can use RPG books intended for other systems/genres/settings). Whereas those who want game-specific rules are pretty much stuck with RPGs--you're not likely to find D&D statblocks for people anywhere but D20 System books. And there aren't a lot of new spells in a Spycraft supplement. Based on this alone, i'd expect crunchy books to outsell fluffy books, assuming equal numbers of gamers who liked each style (or everyone liked them both 50/50, or whatever). Now, whether there is a correlation between preferring one or the other and "seriousness" of gaming as a hobby, or duration of interrest in the hobby, i'd not hazard to guess. Those i've seen come and go don't demonstrate any obvious trend.

 

[woodelf]

I would assume there are far more people who prefer a balance (20/80 thru 50/50) of both fluff and crunch and they would complain about having to purchase two books.

Interesting that you assume there's nobody who'd prefer more fluff than crunch. I assure you, i do exist. There are probably more of me, too.

Also, printing two books doubles the publisher's risk.

Well, i've long wished that the splat books for the WoD games would split the content up differently. Instead of one book with new powers and traits, nifty items, background, and RPing advice for each splat, i'd so much prefer one book with all the new powers, traits, and items (the crunchy bits) for all the splats for a gameline, and a separate book with all the backgrounds and RPing stuff for all the splats. Then i could just buy the fluffy book, which is all i'd use, while pretty much every other WoD gamer i've met could just buy the crunchy book, which's all they'd use, and neither of us would have to put up with all that "wasted pagecount" in our books. I base this on the fact that i've met lots of gamers who are very biased towards the crunchy bits or the fluffy elements, but i've met few or none who only buy one or two splat books for a game (whether that be WoD, D&D, or something else). IME, those who buy splatbooks want the whole set (even if they're always a player), and i've yet to personally meet the gamer who only bought one of them ("because it's the type of character they play"--but maybe that's because i've met very few "typecast" RPers). At "worst", most will buy the one that most appeals to them first, rather than the first one to come out first. But i'm fully prepared to admit that, somehow, all the gamers i've known are a skewed selection.

Besides, I thought WotC has market studies that show the fluffers are fewer than the crunchers.

I'd buy that for D&D players--by now, they're bound to be a self-selected group favoring crunch, 'cause if you prefer fluff you'll probably start playing a less-crunchy game. Doesn't mean it applies to gamers as a whole. You can't tell me that people who buy OtE or Sorcerer supplements would prefer crunch-heavy books.

 

[Desdichado]

However, i contend that the How to Host a Murder, and similar, games lack a crucial element of RPGs--they're not open-ended. While there may be many ways to fail, there is only one successful solution to most of them. They're really more like elaborate puzzles than stripped-down RPGs.

The only crucial element of RPGs (by definition, anyway) is that they be games that contain role-playing. Most How to Host a Murder games I've played had better and more thorough roleplaying than most RPGs I've played in.

But I see your point.

 

[woodelf]

These two comments are nonsensical, taken together. You think the market is "oversaturated", yet you wish there were more games on the market. Pick one?

Nah, makes perfect sense, if somewhat poorly stated. Try this restatement: "there's too much crap; i wish there were more quality products". Now, it might not be true, but it's far from nonsensical.

 

[woodelf]

The only crucial element of RPGs (by definition, anyway) is that they be games that contain role-playing. Most How to Host a Murder games I've played had better and more thorough roleplaying than most RPGs I've played in.

But I see your point.

But you could easily play How to Host a Murder without RPing. You have to get into character at least enough to make decisions for your character with an RPG--i don't think even that level of RPing is actually mechanically required for HtHaM (you could just exchange your clues out of character).

 

[jmucchiello]

Nah, makes perfect sense, if somewhat poorly stated. Try this restatement: "there's too much crap; i wish there were more quality products". Now, it might not be true, but it's far from nonsensical.

Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.

Interesting that you assume there's nobody who'd prefer more fluff than crunch. I assure you, i do exist. There are probably more of me, too.

Actually, I had not intended the 20/80 to indicate fluff/crunch and I guess should have gone with my original text: 20/80 thru 80/20. Oh, well. I would still doubt there is more of you though. You are unique.

 

[dimonic]

Fluff vs Crunch

A key point to note in the debate (which is about fluff/crunch balance) is that one cannot readily judge opinions by list-postings. After all, very few satisfied customers will bother posting!

Are there not some marketing statistical reference points that can be used? Something like each person complaining in e-mail represents xx people who somewhat agree but say nothing? And then one can subtract this number from the total sold, and have a better idea about who likes the status-quo.

Just for the record, I find the crunch/fluff balance in the splat books excellent. However, I could always have lived with fewer illustrations and colour in all my books (but all my players disagree with me on that point).

As an example of the power of "fluff". My players seem only to zero in on some of the more (to me) interesting prestige classes or character concepts when that concept is presented to them via some media, such as the movies, or a book. For me, I get much the same thing from the "fluff": it is media that explains the ráison d'être behind the concept, and makes it attractive (or unattractive).

Too much fluff, on the other hand, can detract from my own ability to create or formulate my world concept. So it is for me (and everyone else) a balance.