Stats Have Suffered From Inflation

[JRRNeiklot]

*CHOKE!* There is a term for this that rhymes with Full Wit... In my highest level 3e D&D game, where the player's characters ended up at between 18th and 19th level the highest stat was a halfling rogue with a 24 Dex. The dwarf fighter had a 20 Str and Con, not including buffs from the wizard, who had a 19 Int. Not a 30 in sight. Maybe they are required in your game, but none that I have played in, run, or even witnessed. The major change is that you don't need wishes anymore, you get better abilities with experience. 3.x is also the first time I ever bothered running a game past 10th level.

The Auld Grump

Again, I agree with you. Those kind of stats ruin the game,imo. But WOTC encourages those kind of stats with the magic items per level guidelines. Wishes didn't get you very far in 1e anyway. It took ten wishes to raise a 16 to a 17.

 

[Crothian]

Sure, at each table. But there is a standard level of magic that each character is supposed to have. It's in the DMG. By those standards it's quite easy to have stats in the 30s. Your game is not required to have those kind of stats by any means, but any game that doesn't is below the norm. Not that that's a bad thing.

Also with the standard amount of magic you can get ACs very high, but that doesn't make that the standard for ACs at that level. MAxing out ones AC is not going to be the standard just like maxing out ones stats are not going to be the standard.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

and wishes could easily be used to increase scores as wishes seemed to grow on trees in those mid to high level modules.

In 1e, after a stat reaches 16, it takes 10 wishes to raise it one point. Any game that has that many wishes lying around, has worse problems.

 

[Crothian]

In 1e, after a stat reaches 16, it takes 10 wishes to raise it one point. Any game that has that many wishes lying around, has worse problems.

well, doing as you are doing judging by the modules, wishes were not that uncommon.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Look, I'm not saying it's good or bad, but I honestly can't see how anyone can think 1es stats were generally higher than in 3e. Even if you're just talking about stat bonuses. Maybe my games were more low magic than most, I dunno. I just know all high level games I played in 1e had maybe an 18 or 19 here and there, compared to the 3e games where stats in the 30s were....not common, maybe, but not rare, either.

 

[Zandel]

Remember that in 3.x wishes can only be used to add up to a +5 bonus and even then you need 5 wish spells all cast one after the other.

 

[MerricB]

*CHOKE!* There is a term for this that rhymes with Full Wit... In my highest level 3e D&D game, where the player's characters ended up at between 18th and 19th level the highest stat was a halfling rogue with a 24 Dex. The dwarf fighter had a 20 Str and Con, not including buffs from the wizard, who had a 19 Int. Not a 30 in sight. Maybe they are required in your game, but none that I have played in, run, or even witnessed. The major change is that you don't need wishes anymore, you get better abilities with experience. 3.x is also the first time I ever bothered running a game past 10th level.

The Auld Grump

Indeed. And you also get into the position of having to make choices - it is rare that you can afford a +5 vorpal weapon and a +5 tome of strength. Which do you want more?

Consider also that even a poor Wizard whose starting Int is 14 in 3e (the minimum "high" score by the 4d6 system) can easily attain a 19 Int by 17th level, and thus be able to cast 9th level spells.

In AD&D, a Wizard with a 14 or 15 Int is never going to get access to the highest level spells, unless the DM is very kind with magic items and wishes.

Cheers!

 

[wingsandsword]

Earlier versions presumed that what you had at character creation pretty much definied your character. If you didn't have loads of strength, you'd never be as good a fighter as the guy with an 18-percentile. If you didn't have sky-high intelligence or wisdom, you'd alwayas be a second-rate spellcaster, even if you qualified to be a Cleric. Not to mention the high requirements for a lot of classes, and the arbitrarily high requirements for dual-classing (if human).

Thus, there was a lot of pressure to roll very high ability scores, since not only would your basic character class/concept rely on specific high scores, low rolls would forever taint your character's usefulness. Player powergaming in 3e seems less focused on getting high scores as it does powerful combinations for template/race/class/prestige class/feats.

In 3.x/d20 however, what you are at character creation isn't the be-all & end-all of your character's abilities. Ability score increases every 4 levels mean that even a bum roll can get better over time if you work on it. Easier access to stat-boosting items means that any low ability score can be brought up to normal (and good can be made far better), and a uniform standard for wishes (including an upper cap of +5) eliminates much cheese I saw in earlier editions regarding Wish abuse.

Thus, in 3e compared to 1e & 2e, stats at the higher levels appear higher, thanks to a different scale above 18, as well as the fact that scores rise over time is presumed as a part of the system. Stats at lower levels appear lower because there is less pressure for players to manipulate their scores upward, and methods like Default Array and Point But set a fixed amount for ability scores which might be lower than some players are used to.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, something else I have noticed about 3.x - Players are willing to have a bad stat, and enjoy playing with it. In previous editions the only dump stat was Cha. Myself I have had fun playing a character with an 18 Int, an 18 Cha, and an 8 Wis... guess which stat I got the most fun out of? (Impulsive, and would-be heroic, with a touch of gullibility... What's not to love?)

The Auld Grump