statue of baphomet in detroit - discuss civily

[Scott DeWar]

https://www.facebook.com/topic/Baph...qid=6176205256440310520&__mref=message_bubble

I was cruising about Facebook and found this.

Now I know there are people from all point of the religious spectrum and many have very strong feelings on something like this, but I am asking for civility here. If I feel someone is acting out of line I will not hesitate to call for the green overlords the moderators in.

 

[Morrus]

I saw this elsewhere. Am I right in that they're actually atheists, not satanists? I heard a rumour that to get in to the unveiling you had to sign a contract signing your soul over to Satan - something an atheist, obviously, is happy to do because they consider the beneficiary (and, indeed, the currency, I guess) to be nonexistent.

 

[Legatus Legionis]

Considering how our secular world has attacked all religious symbols, from having the Ten Commandments at a courthouse to one where one can not say "Merry Christmas", nor have a Christmas tree or a Hanukkah on public property, so this having a representation of satan, which is a symbol of evil to most western religions...

IMO, this statue has no place in the general public eye. If it must be displayed, it should be placed in a dark corner of a museum or as part of a private collections.

 

[Morrus]

All art has a place in the public eye; that's what it's for. Artistic expression should not be suppressed.

Whether or not religious art should be on a governmental building is an entirely separate issue and not really relevant here. This is a private piece in a private location.

 

[Scott DeWar]

As I am a professed broken christian, I still agree with Morrus. I just wish it in some other country.

 

[Umbran]

Am I right in that they're actually atheists, not satanists?

They call themselves "non-theistic Satanists" - they say they have a religion, but without a creator-god.

To quote them:

"We understand the Satanic figure as a symbol of man’s inherent nature, representative of the eternal rebel, enlightened inquiry and personal freedom rather than a supernatural deity or being. It is our mission to facilitate communication and mobilization of politically aware Satanists, secularists, and advocates for individual liberty. We actively provide outreach and participate in public affairs where the issues might benefit from rational, Satanic insights."

 

[Scott DeWar]

They call themselves "non-theistic Satanists" - they say they have a religion, but without a creator-god.
". . . . . participate in public affairs where the issues might benefit from rational, Satanic insights."

dang. I already said for this thread to be civil.

hoisted by mein own petard!

 

[KirayaTiDrekan]

I admire these folks, honestly. I have been following them on Facebook for a while and Umbran is somewhat correct. They take Satanic symbology and make a statement with it to protest and point out the absurdity of religiously focused laws. There is an assumption by many Christian lawmakers that theirs is the only religion and so, when the make laws designed to protect religious "freedoms" they don't realize the can of worms they are opening. The Satanic Temple then steps in and demonstrates the loopholes...much to the chagrin of the lawmakers.

 

[Umbran]

Considering how our secular world has attacked all religious symbols, from having the Ten Commandments at a courthouse

Well, that's where this statue comes from - it was originally intended as a protest against having Christian iconography in a government building in Oklahoma - the law tried to sneak around by saying that it would allow any group to petition to have such, and the Satanists, to show that it was still inappropriate, called their bluff. The Ten Commandments statue has since been ruled unconstitutional, so this statue was no longer needed for its original purpose.

 

[Ryujin]

It's hard for me to get all worked up about people who are creating controversy for controversy's sake. As to the statue...... Enh. Another inanimate chunk of plaster, or whatever, that I don't really see as having a lot of artistic merit, made for a purpose rather than as art.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Considering how our secular world has attacked all religious symbols, ... to one where one can not say "Merry Christmas",...

Who is saying you can't say "Merry Christmas"?

 

[Legatus Legionis]

The statue was not art for the sake of art. I do not agree with the "protest art" aspect either.

They (satanist) tried to exploit a loophole so they could display an idol of the "fallen one" as they had originally planned on public land. Once the courts blocked all religious symbols from public spaces, they turned to an industrial "private" location.

Who is saying you can't say "Merry Christmas"?

I have been in stores in December where the sales associates had to say "Happy Holiday". When asked why they don't say "Merry Christmas", was told they had to by management so as to not offend non-Christians, while still getting the $ale$. All signage/flyers must not mention Christmas in any way.

News channels also have forgone to the "politically - Happy holidays", as too newspapers, media, etc.

 

[Wild Gazebo]

The statue was not art for the sake of art. I do not agree with the "protest art" aspect either.

They (satanist) tried to exploit a loophole so they could display an idol of the "fallen one" as they had originally planned on public land. Once the courts blocked all religious symbols from public spaces, they turned to an industrial "private" location.



I have been in stores in December where the sales associates had to say "Happy Holiday". When asked why they don't say "Merry Christmas", was told they had to by management so as to not offend non-Christians, while still getting the $ale$. All signage/flyers must not mention Christmas in any way.

News channels also have forgone to the "politically - Happy holidays", as too newspapers, media, etc.

This in no way means people can't say 'Merry Christmas.' These are business decisions so as to not ostracize people. Simply put, they make more money when people feel more included. Employees are paid to represent the company and thus should speak in a manner that benefits the company. Public organizations do the same thing; but, their 'money' is productivity and community...so they use general language to make that environment better and hopefully more efficient. Citizens all over the US have the liberty to say what they want. They don't have the liberty to avoid criticism though.

 

[Umbran]

The statue was not art for the sake of art.

Neither was the statue with the Ten Commandments they were attempting to combat. That one was art for sake of a religious message. Which is fine in general, just not on government grounds.

I do not agree with the "protest art" aspect either.

You don't agree that "protest art" is valid? Or do you not agree that this was protest art?

Once the courts blocked all religious symbols from public spaces, they turned to an industrial "private" location.

And? In a private location (meaning privately owned), they certainly have the right to have it - freedom of speech, and all that.

I have been in stores in December where the sales associates had to say "Happy Holiday".

Given that they are saying it from before Thanksgiving through New Year's, it makes a whole lot of sense to say "Happy Holidays". Plural. Because it is several holidays in a row, several of which are not Christmas.

"Merry Christmas" is exclusive to all other holidays. "Happy Holidays" is inclusive of any and all. I fail to see why a policy to be inclusive is a problem.

 

[MechaPilot]

There is an assumption by many Christian lawmakers that theirs is the only religion and so, when the make laws designed to protect religious "freedoms" they don't realize the can of worms they are opening.

Lawmakers often forget that religious freedom requires freedom from religion. It's often either difficult or impossible to be a member of one faith while being legally obligated to obey the rules of another faith.

 

[MechaPilot]

I have been in stores in December where the sales associates had to say "Happy Holiday". When asked why they don't say "Merry Christmas", was told they had to by management so as to not offend non-Christians, while still getting the $ale$. All signage/flyers must not mention Christmas in any way.

News channels also have forgone to the "politically - Happy holidays", as too newspapers, media, etc.

I work in fast food and have worked in retail. At my current location, there are no holiday instructions (though I generally wait for the customer to offer whatever seasons greetings they think is appropriate before echoing it back). However, at the retail chain that I used to work at we were instructed to say Happy Holidays if we were going to blindly offer a seasonal greeting to a customer. if a customer said Merry Christmas to us, we were allowed to say it back to them.

What it ultimately comes down to is money. People like to shop where they feel welcome. That's the main reason why people in customer service get fired for being rude: alienating a customer can mean losing that customer for life. The same is true of various media that rely on selling a service (whether it's news, entertainment, or whatever).

 

[KirayaTiDrekan]

Christianity has enjoyed the privilege of being assumed to be "default" for a long time in the U.S. Being denied privilege is not the same as being denied freedom. Lack of default status is not persecution.

 

[tomBitonti]

I dunno. Is the statue a protest, or representative of a true belief? Also, many people would find the statue to be extremely offensive, the same as many other symbols are offensive.

That means a public display is a problem.

A private showing is another matter.

Thx!

TomB

 

[pedr]

Surely the point here is that the state was pretending that a public display of the Ten Commandments was art and not an endorsement of a particular religion so this sculpture was created to challenge that mischaracterisation by seeking to install more "art" which would appear to a reasonable viewer as being the endorsement of a different religion.

The creators of this sculpture almost certainly wish that the situation never arose, and that Oklahoma hadn't installed a Ten Commandments sculpture at the State Capitol, and hadn't used misleading rhetoric to attempt to justify it. If Oklahoma had admitted that it was a religious display, the legal opposition would have been simpler, but by seeking to defend it as non-religious - as something in a monument park paid for by a private donor - they opened the way for the proposal for alternative monuments.

Ironically Oklahoma lost the challenge to the constitutionality of the monument at the State Supreme Court, so the Baphomet sculptors found an alternative site for it, but Oklahoma is defying the determination that the Ten Commandments sculpture is unconstitutional and considering changing the state constitution, though how you could create a state constitution which allowed state displays of Christian religion but not other religions while remaining compliant with the U.S. Constitution is a mystery to me. So for now the Christian monument is up, and the non-Christian one isn't.

 

[Ryujin]

Surely the point here is that the state was pretending that a public display of the Ten Commandments was art and not an endorsement of a particular religion so this sculpture was created to challenge that mischaracterisation by seeking to install more "art" which would appear to a reasonable viewer as being the endorsement of a different religion.

The creators of this sculpture almost certainly wish that the situation never arose, and that Oklahoma hadn't installed a Ten Commandments sculpture at the State Capitol, and hadn't used misleading rhetoric to attempt to justify it. If Oklahoma had admitted that it was a religious display, the legal opposition would have been simpler, but by seeking to defend it as non-religious - as something in a monument park paid for by a private donor - they opened the way for the proposal for alternative monuments.

Ironically Oklahoma lost the challenge to the constitutionality of the monument at the State Supreme Court, so the Baphomet sculptors found an alternative site for it, but Oklahoma is defying the determination that the Ten Commandments sculpture is unconstitutional and considering changing the state constitution, though how you could create a state constitution which allowed state displays of Christian religion but not other religions while remaining compliant with the U.S. Constitution is a mystery to me. So for now the Christian monument is up, and the non-Christian one isn't.

Such is the way of things in a country that enshrines the separation of Church and State in law, but in which no candidate for State of Federal office would ever be elected without referencing God.