Status Effects

[Frostmarrow]

Very constructive and helpful, thanks! However, you forgot to include things like a hit point bonus from flanking and a hit point bonus from being equipped with lockpicks.

Actually, I feel like hit points are a bit too single axis to serve as an interesting measure of status in the D&D game. You need to be held, frozen, set on fire, poisoned, cursed (maybe in a few different ways!), diseased, maimed, blinded, weakened, sickened, shrunk, transmogrified, charmed, put to sleep, dominated, addicted, shaken, and so on. Without a variety of strange and unpleasant status effects, there's no way to both meaningfully and enjoyably model all the terrible fates that lurk in dungeons.

Statuses are also quite nice for a variety of beneficial effects, but that's not my point.

That Said, I'm pretty sure we don't literally have the condition track from Saga, because we've only seen the Bloodied Condition with no mention of threshholds. Also, I seem to recall some designer said it wasn't coming over, but that might just be hopeful thoughts whizzing about.

My point was really just to demonstrate that there are a variety of ways of modeling Terrible Things Happening To A Character without invoking the mathematically involved process of Level Drain or Stat Drain.

A permanent Maimed, Fatigued, Shaken, Slowed, Cursed, or Sickened condition, with defined effects, would go quite some way towards replacing the removed tools.

(Example: Slowed X: You suffer a -X penalty to Armor Class, Reflex Saves, all Attack Rolls, Dexterity-based Skill and Attribute checks, and Initiative checks. You also suffer a -Y (for Y some function of X) square reduction in movement; if this reduces your speed below 0 you are paralyzed and can take no actions until your speed becomes at least one square. Your DM gets to laugh at you.)

This is much more complex, on the face of it, than 3.X stat drain or level drain. Look at all the text!
However, nothing cascades. Those are the numbers, simply apply them. Your dexterity mod is still +5 or whatever, but if it's one of the called out situations-in-which-being-Slowed-affects-you, it's modified by the number, rather than having to track where all the math came from.

Heck, the "X" was something I came up with spur of the moment. I'm sure Slowed might also just be a single condition, with X always equal to 2 or 5 or what-have-you.

I'm serious about hp.

In an advanced game you can keep track of what the hp loss comes from and then have recovery of those hp be conditional on the type of status. If someone lights a torch all darkness hp damage is lifted. If you drink the antidote all poison hp loss is cured. And so on.

It makes life easy for module authors and crunch writers as well. They can make up anything they like and compare the discomfort level to that of being stabbed with a dagger or maimed with a guisarme (because weapon damage is a handy, as in every PHB, reference.)

Say for instance that you need a hamstringed status because you are writing up a feat. You simply put down 4 hp damage as the negative effect of being hamstringed. The equivalent of being stabbed with a dagger. Since the game is disregarding axe swings to the head (and how that affects movement and accuracy) why bother with minutae in this instance? The fluff is in the names.

Flanking is already fixed with combat advantage. If you got it you can sneak attack, but you don't think you will get a +2 on top of that? Nah.

Lockpicks is a requirement to even try. Face it, I'm not going to any open lock with a knife.

Anyways, the designers can dance around any issues that might appear. The single thing that is important (to me as a gamist) is - will it float? Speedily.

 

[Frostmarrow]

snip * Intimidate Attack: You scared the crap out of your opponent, roll Intimidate vs. Will. Opponent lose 1d6 HPs and can't act that round".

Wouldn't you just love that? I know I would.

It would also explain how Warlords can heal rally.

 

[Lackhand]

I'm serious about hp.

In an advanced game you can keep track of what the hp loss comes from and then have recovery of those hp be conditional on the type of status. If someone lights a torch all darkness hp damage is lifted. If you drink the antidote all poison hp loss is cured. And so on.

It makes life easy for module authors and crunch writers as well. They can make up anything they like and compare the discomfort level to that of being stabbed with a dagger or maimed with a guisarme (because weapon damage is a handy, as in every PHB, reference.)

Say for instance that you need a hamstringed status because you are writing up a feat. You simply put down 4 hp damage as the negative effect of being hamstringed. The equivalent of being stabbed with a dagger. Since the game is disregarding axe swings to the head (and how that affects movement and accuracy) why bother with minutae in this instance? The fluff is in the names.

Flanking is already fixed with combat advantage. If you got it you can sneak attack, but you don't think you will get a +2 on top of that? Nah.

Lockpicks is a requirement to even try. Face it, I'm not going to any open lock with a knife.

Anyways, the designers can dance around any issues that might appear. The single thing that is important (to me as a gamist) is - will it float? Speedily.

This game is neat, but you can't call what's left HP anymore. Mostly because tracking them like previous types of HP would get out of hand.
However, (until a better name comes up), we could call them Plot Points. They don't get to be modified by con anymore, exactly, either.
Events happen, and when they do (ack, the light goes out!), you note what happened and how many Plot Points it dealt (no lights -- 3 PP).

Then you can resolve things appropriately. But you have to stop treating them as additive quantities, because their description and resolution requires different handling (you can't say "you died" when the inflicting wound was a social rebuke. You can say "you lose the duel of wits", though).

But this is a bit too much peanut-butter in my chocolate for me. D&D uses hp as an abstraction for stress capacity, and it tends to bear a nodding relationship with physical trauma. YMMV

 

[Lackhand]

Lol.
I also like the idea that HPs could be more than just wounds or weariness, but also morale. When I read your post i thougth "hmmmm cool, Intimidate Attack: You scared the crap out of your opponent, roll Intimidate vs. Will. Opponent lose 1d6 HPs and can't act that round" But then the healing potion situation... healing potion shouldn't heal your morale. Maybe Healing potions in 4E are called Invigorating Potion

Maybe all sorts of weariness and morale damage mean loss of HPs, but you never go below Bloodied for those. But then healing potions can't heal your non-bloodied lost HPs?

I think I need to wait for some more previews.

Actually, despite what I just said, I wouldn't mind that either Thing is, I'm not sure that it needs to deal hit point damage.

I'm actually okay with positive morale-ish effects becoming hit points, but negative morale-ish effects (like fear) not being hit points. If the demotivating power comes from necromancy, of course, all bets are off: Negative Energy can *certainly* inflict wounds!
But just a really scary shout? Meh, I'd prefer no damage.

I think it's because you can get pretty far with hippy-drippy "The Power Of Positive Thinking", as far as I'm concerned. But no matter how hard I concentrate on how sad I am, I don't spontaneously stigmatatize.

A game with Mental Points or Sanity Points or similar could support this better. D&D? Not that game.

 

[Frostmarrow]

This game is neat, but you can't call what's left HP anymore. Mostly because tracking them like previous types of HP would get out of hand.
However, (until a better name comes up), we could call them Plot Points. They don't get to be modified by con anymore, exactly, either.
Events happen, and when they do (ack, the light goes out!), you note what happened and how many Plot Points it dealt (no lights -- 3 PP).

Then you can resolve things appropriately. But you have to stop treating them as additive quantities, because their description and resolution requires different handling (you can't say "you died" when the inflicting wound was a social rebuke. You can say "you lose the duel of wits", though).

But this is a bit too much peanut-butter in my chocolate for me. D&D uses hp as an abstraction for stress capacity, and it tends to bear a nodding relationship with physical trauma. YMMV

I see your point. It might just be a tad too much peanut-butter in there. I just got carried away. I hope we can still get back to the subject of what else could replace status or condition track.

We don't want a system that cascades through layers of the character sheet but we still want to know what just debilitated my character. Any ideas? What is Mike Mearls thinking?