D&D 5E status of 5e poison in summer 2017

[CapnZapp]

Okay, so my google-fu is failing me.

Is poison still kinda undefined, in that it RAW is nearly useless and each alternate interpretation of the rules makes it horrendously overpowered?

Or do we have functional rules for poison finally after three years of the game?

(Where "functional" means that poison use is a viable character build choice - not overpowered, not useless)

To reiterate the main points of contention:
* first off, the only kind of poison usage we're interested in here is the combat application of poison. Poison that you apply to a sword or arrow head. Poison you need to inhale or eat belongs to the social and exploration pillars - please let's focus on poison as a means to increase your DPR and/or impose debuff conditions.
* do a dose of poison (on a weapon here) last the full minute or one strike only? Are we still asking ourselves this question? It's a ridiculous choice. A single hit = poisons are horrendously overpriced and/or useless. A full minute's worth (easily forty attacks for a competent fighter) = poison is horrendously overpowered, and no martial character should ever leave home without poison kit proficiency.

What did the designers end up with? All I could find was some sage advice comment where Crawford said he was still thinking about it.

I am aware of the DMG errata, but not aware it changed anything.

Pre-errata:

Injury. A creature that takes slashing or piercing
damage from a weapon or piece of ammunition coated
with injury poison is exposed to its effects.​

Post-errata:

Injury. Injury poison can be applied to weapons, ammunition,
trap components, and other objects that deal piercing or
slashing damage and remains potent until delivered through a
wound or washed off. A creature that takes piercing or slashing
damage from an object coated with the poison is exposed to
its effects.​

So it appears that DMG poisons went from one kind of broken to the other.

But PHB poison (Basic poison) wasn't errataed.

Does this mean Basic poison works differently than other poisons, and can't be used as a model of general poison rules?!

Where is all this discussed? Do you know of any well-regarded solutions? Have the designers said anything?

To be clear: in order for poison to be viable there needs to be a definite cost (both in gold and in social complications, but mostly in the risk of accidentally poisoning yourself) that explains why everyone and their mother aren't using poison. In other words, there needs to be a charbuild cost that results in only specialized characters (that sacrifices other aspects of your class) attempting regular combat poison usage. The effects of poison needs to be non-trivial, yet not completely overpowering, meaning more than one impact per dose, but far fewer than "as many as you can cram into ten combat rounds".

Ideally there would also be rules for harvesting poison from defeated monsters and rules that allow you to create (and not merely buy) poison yourself (and I don't mean one dose every blue moon, like the extremely slow crafting rules), but this I can accept falls outside the core rules.

 

[CapnZapp]

If we begin from the end, what effects are balanced poison effects?

First off, a reminder this discussion is about combat poison. (Having a poison deal 9d6 damage is fine, provided it acts slowly (where "slowly" means slower than a few minutes). That's the social/exploratory scenario, where you concern yourself with "how do I put the poison in the Countess' cup?" This is not that. This is: what leeway do we have to increase a Rogue's combat potential before it becomes overwhelming?)

I'm thinking 9d6 bonus damage (even with a save) is simply out of the question for anything the rogue can repeat more than once in a combat (and in a day, really). Sure, finding the odd dose of Purple Worm poison is fine, but not if the rogue can reliably buy and apply it to regular combat.

Gold is a very poor balancer - while 2000 gp is a huge sum in one campaign, it is trivial in another.

Most poisons should be a few points of bonus damage per successful attack; a couple of d6 at most. Having to make Con saves after each and every poison hit gets old very fast, so ideally that's streamlined away.

I'm thinking perhaps we could say you need a successful sneak attack to deliver a poison's full dosage, a mere hit doesn't cut it. (Example: a regular hit deals +3 poison damage, a sneak attack deals +3d6 poison damage).

Other effects should be more like other combat debuffs than outright win buttons.

A poison that instantly paralyzes the enemy isn't balanced - it's a win button. And those we agreed to keep out of the combat pillar.

A poison that deals the Poisoned condition for one round (so the Rogue is incentivized to keep hitting the same target to keep it Poisoned) is. While entirely insignificant for Social/Exploration, it is useful for Combat.

 

[Ath'kethin]

1. I'm not sure I see the distinction between the pre- and post- errata versions of poison that seems to be an issue.

2. The Primeval Thule Player's Companion has a Rogue subclass called the Poisoner, which includes some quick-and-dirty poison crafting and application rules that worked great during play in my campaign. It includes (very abstract, you'd probably complain about it) rules for crafting the poisons, and the actual poisons available vary depending on the Rogue's level. Their effects also increase in potency.

For example, at level X, the Poisoner gains the use of Blinding Powder. When used at level X, the target has to make a save or be blinded for one turn. But once the Poisoner reached level Y, the target is blinded and poisoned if they failed their save. Once the Poisoner reached level XX, the effects of the poison last one minute instead of only one turn.

The entry also has rules for sharing poisons with others. Again, quick and dirty, but it might at least point in the direction you're seeking.

 

[jaelis]

As I read it, the DMG and PHB poisons are indeed different. Which actually kind of works ok, but it is a bit strange.

---
Here is JC on twitter:

Injury poison is spent when a creature takes the piercing/slashing damage that delivers the poison (DMG, 257).
Basic poison (PH, 153) is potent for 1 minute after it's applied. As written, it works on multiple hits.

 

[CapnZapp]

1. I'm not sure I see the distinction between the pre- and post- errata versions of poison that seems to be an issue.

I did not either, at least at first.

It seems the errata's main motivation was to close off the rules interpretation "it doesn't say the dose wears off once it applies, so you get the poison benefits on every attack for the whole minute".

Curiously, that interpretation mostly revolved around Basic Poison (from the PHB), and that isn't errataed (in the PHB errata), meaning PHB and DMG poisons no longer work the same.

2. The Primeval Thule Player's Companion has a Rogue subclass called the Poisoner, which includes some quick-and-dirty poison crafting and application rules that worked great during play in my campaign. It includes (very abstract, you'd probably complain about it) rules for crafting the poisons, and the actual poisons available vary depending on the Rogue's level. Their effects also increase in potency.

For example, at level X, the Poisoner gains the use of Blinding Powder. When used at level X, the target has to make a save or be blinded for one turn. But once the Poisoner reached level Y, the target is blinded and poisoned if they failed their save. Once the Poisoner reached level XX, the effects of the poison last one minute instead of only one turn.

The entry also has rules for sharing poisons with others. Again, quick and dirty, but it might at least point in the direction you're seeking.

Would that be anything like.... this
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?568921-quick-proposal-for-Assassins-to-use-poison

(I agree any balanced poison effects must be dependant on character level in some way)

 

[Schmoe]

I'm not aware of anything official that does what you want. I like your house rules, though! I may borrow them if someone in my campaign is into poison.

 

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Small nitpick, but poison gas can very much apply in combat if it is stored in something that breaks when thrown.

And while I guess this would be more of a houserule and not an answer RAW, but a blade using up the poison coating on a hit or not should rely on what kind of hit it is and how viscous, or sticky, the poison is. A stab wound with a non-sticky poison? Gone in one successful attack, this kind of poison should be really cheap and weak, since it is basically a one-shot poisoning. A double-edged blade that hits with a slashing attack? Common sense says at least one edge still has poison on it. Any kind of weapon that can break skin/draw blood to deliver the poison coated with a sticky poison should last for several attacks, except for missile ammunition, since that is always used up on a successful hit.

In general, I am not a fan of poisons that just to a little something over several rounds. It should have it's full force hit as soon as it goes into effect, whether that is sickness, paralysis, unconsciousness, or death, pending saving throws, of course, for reduced effectiveness.

 

[Blue]

Is poison still kinda undefined, in that it RAW is nearly useless and each alternate interpretation of the rules makes it horrendously overpowered?

Or do we have functional rules for poison finally after three years of the game?

(Where "functional" means that poison use is a viable character build choice - not overpowered, not useless)

Let me look at this from another angle - what character build gives up anything for poison in such a way that adding poison brings up to "not overpowerered, not useless".

Because the main problem I see is for a "poison build" is that you can add poison to any build and if poison adds effectiveness, it will add it to other builds as well to make them even better - i.e. overpowered.

So it would seem that to have a reasonable poison build, you would need to have a subclass or feat or something where the opportunity cost would offset the bonuses you get. In other words, you can't balance any regularly used, large effect poisons without also taking something away, which needs to happen in the character creation/leveling process.

 

[Lanefan]

Is poison use still considered an Evil act in 5e?

If it is, that right there will in theory deter a great number of heroic goodly types from using it...

Other than that, [MENTION=20564]Blue[/MENTION] is right in that if the benefits of poison use don't come with some sort of drawback (beyond just fumbling into yourself now and then) there's no logical reason why all characters won't just do it.

And consider this: if you allow for poison use in combat as the OP seems to want to do then you're by default declaring that all h.p. are at least partly "meat", to allow for the scratch or nick or other physical wound through which the poison enters.

Lan-"and of course what benefits the PCs would logically equally benefit their enemies"-efan

 

[Ath'kethin]

I did not either, at least at first.

It seems the errata's main motivation was to close off the rules interpretation "it doesn't say the dose wears off once it applies, so you get the poison benefits on every attack for the whole minute".

Curiously, that interpretation mostly revolved around Basic Poison (from the PHB), and that isn't errataed (in the PHB errata), meaning PHB and DMG poisons no longer work the same.


Would that be anything like.... this
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?568921-quick-proposal-for-Assassins-to-use-poison

(I agree any balanced poison effects must be dependant on character level in some way)

The saving throws DC mechanic is the same (no surprise there), but the Poisoner is otherwise different from your version.

The supplement lists specific poisons that can be applied, and the selections grow more numerous and more potent as the character rises in level.