Stealth Flow Chart

[GnomeWorks]

Ha!

Where's your simplicity now, eh?

...though the fact that it can be put into a relatively straight-forward flowchart (two branches at each node, tops) is rather nice. Lots of steps, but not terribly complicated, though some would probably argue that each step in and of itself is an added complication.

Good job on the chart!

 

[Terwox]

I thought you made stealth checks vs. passive perception from monsters, and they could later roll to try and spot you. However, I think that only because of things I read on the boards. Is this wholly uncorrect? The flowchart speaks differently.

(I would rather it was vs. passive simply to cut down on rolls, there is enough variation in stealth itself being on 1d20 for me.)

 

[Zetesofos]

I believe you would only roll vs. there passive perception when your NOT incombat (sneaking up on guards, etc, etc). If you in combat, and you disappear, an enemy is GOING to try to find you, unless it's a dumb ass ogre or something *shrugs*

 

[Xyl]

I think you're confusing the Stealth check vs Perception, which happens when you do an action, and the Stealth check vs passive Perception which happens at the end of your turn. Here's the summary of my interpretation that I made for my players:

[sblock]

• There are two types of stealth: "hidden" status, and hidden actions. "Hidden" status applies to a particular opponent. While you have "hidden" status, you effectively have total concealment from that opponent.
• If an action is hidden from an opponent, you have total concealment against that opponent for the duration of the action. That means you have combat advantage. Yes, you can use this to snipe.
• You can make any action hidden by making a Stealth check as part of the action, opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might see the action. The check fails unless you have cover or concealment.
• If you take an action that moves you (not necessarily a move action), and succeed on your Stealth check to hide the action, you gain "hidden" status.
• If you attack or shout, you lose "hidden" status. If you succeed on a Stealth check to hide the attack or shout, you're still hidden until after you've completed the action.
• Whenever you don't have cover or concealment against an opponent (other than the concealment from being hidden), you lose "hidden" status.
• At the end of each turn, if any opponents don't know you're there, you make a Stealth check opposed by each opponent's passive Perception score. If you fail, the opponent realizes you're there and learns the approximate direction you're in. If you fail by 10 or more, the opponent learns exactly what square you're in. (This probably won't happen often, except for monsters…)

Example

A choker is lurking in a cavern when a fighter and wizard happen by. The choker activates its racial concealment ability, and moves towards the pair. Its Stealth check beats both their perception results, so it gains "hidden" status - neither character sees it move. It takes a second move action to get behind the wizard. It's still hidden, so it doesn't need to make another Stealth check.

The next round, the choker tries to grab the wizard. This is an attack, so it loses "hidden" status and has to make a new Stealth check. Its result beats the wizard's Perception, so it has combat advantage for the attack. It rolls a 2 on its attack roll and misses despite the combat advantage. Since the attack is over and it doesn't have "hidden" status, both characters now see where it is and can attack it with only the -2 penalty for concealment. When it moves again, it can make a new Stealth check to regain "hidden" status.
[/sblock]

 

[zsek320]

I guess the label "Creatures turn" is not that clear on my part. I should probably change it to say "Creatures response" because technically all observers get to make a perception check to see if they notice you being sneaky or not.

I left some of the detail out of what constitutes cover/concealment because it would make things even more complex...

Adding a "I've got stealth!" section is a good idea and I will probably add that into the next version.

 

[hairy stinkeye]

I thought you made stealth checks vs. passive perception from monsters, and they could later roll to try and spot you. However, I think that only because of things I read on the boards. Is this wholly uncorrect? The flowchart speaks differently.

This is pretty much how I've houseruled it, for the sake of simplicity and making sure the rogues turn doesn't last for 20 minutes. One of my favorite things about 4e is how its been set up so that everyone's turn takes about the same amount of time (via the removal of animal companions, summoned creatures, etc.). Treating the passive perception as though it was another static defense like will or fort seems to be the way to go. I don't even have the bad guys go hunting for the stealthed guy, I just have him make a new stealth roll every turn that takes any appropriate modifiers into consideration. Screw all the stuff that made that flow chart necessary. No offense to the OP, its a beautiful flow chart.

 

[PierreBlind]

In the rules, usualy a stealth check is not to hide, it is to remain hidden.

In the RAW, stealth in combat can be used to avoid being noticed, not to hide yourself.

The only easy way i know to hide myself in combat is a bluff check (and you need cover or concealment to remain unoticed), once per encounter.

One "logic" other way is with superior concealment : you are clearly invisible to the target, you might apply the "invisible" rules while in the superior concealment. You are hidden and may move in normal concealment with Stealth check to remain hidden.

The problem is with the "normal" concealment. I don't think you can hide yourself with only a normal concealment (small fog for instance) in combat.

Logic : you see someone in the small fog who is firing at you, there is no way you can lose sight of him unless you are distracted (or unless the small fog become a big fog with superior concealment).
Playability : fight with kobold in obscurity might become a nightmare.

The thing that makes me think i may be wrong is the rulebook which says (p 188):
"Failure: You can’t try again unless observers
become distracted or you manage to obtain cover or
concealment."
I think (hope) it may be an error (i think it should have been "superior cover or superior concealment" to retry a stealth check).

I think we need an official ruling on that.

 

[Klaumbaz]

In the RAW, stealth in combat can be used to avoid being noticed, not to hide yourself.

Success: You avoid notice, unheard and hidden from view. If you later attack or shout, you're no longer hidden.

Please reread your book.

 

[HP Dreadnought]

I just scanned it. . .

What's the difference between the two charts?

It would be awesome if combat advantage was included.

 

[zsek320]

I added a "I've got stealth" part in v2 which is marked in blue...it mentions that if you make an attack you have combat advantage and I only took into account what I thought was a passive action on the creatures turn...

so the chart does not take into account if a creature actively searches or if they make a wild attack that hits because I feel that those would need their own charts and the results are pretty self explanitory... if the active search beats the stealth the target is seen... if the attack some how hits the target is seen...

I agree that it is kind of silly that I felt it worth while to create a flow chart...I think the PHB could have had some stuff to help clear up confusion...

Thanks for all of your feedback.