Steps to an ad-hoc skill challenge

[satori01]

I'm not sure I am enamored of this mechanic. The intent is obvious, and a good one, try to eliminate or reduce the "face man" syndrome, where 1 player will do the rolling of the dice for the group.

I like the idea, but I wonder about the practice.....could not the party in the negotiation with the Duke, simply have a couple of characters roll different skills? Does everyone have to make their own roll?
If so what about the character that has no social skills...seems tortuous to make up some excuse for how Athletics will sway the Duke....barring some foreshadowing stating the Duke is a lover of sports.

Likewise what if a single roll fails spectacularly? The Demo skill test was to see if players could sneak out of a city...now it strikes me that if a player rolls particularly bad on say a Bluff check, he or she should be caught, normally this would mean a chase or combat.....yet from the Demo description it did not sound like this was the failure possibility.

Flavourwise is it that much of an improvement? I like it for negotiation....I am curious if it could be adapted for traps....for wilderness exploration...not really much of a difference, if the Druid , Ranger, Barbarian...blows their Survival check, then someone always attempted a Spot or Search check to see if they could find a trail. Ultimately overland travel comes down to dice rolls....which is why long duration Fly, Mass Fly, Teleport, and Find the Path could be good things, to cut down the hand waving for finding the Unfindable Temple in the Trackless Jungle.

 

[Cadfan]

You think you could combine A and B to be 1 skill challenege titled "get help"? Either successively or simultaneously the group seeks help from both the Duke and the TGG.

I'm not sure this is a good idea.

Progress on getting help from the thieves guild guy doesn't necessarily help you in getting help from the Duke. Not to mention, failing X times at cajoling the thieves guild guy doesn't necessarily ruin your chances with the Duke.

I think it probably works best as two skill challenges, perhaps run side by side. If one is abandoned because it is unnecessary after the other succeeds, then so be it.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

I'm not sure this is a good idea.

Progress on getting help from the thieves guild guy doesn't necessarily help you in getting help from the Duke. Not to mention, failing X times at cajoling the thieves guild guy doesn't necessarily ruin your chances with the Duke.

I think it probably works best as two skill challenges, perhaps run side by side. If one is abandoned because it is unnecessary after the other succeeds, then so be it.

I could see running them side by side - but with the chance that failures in one could affect both - for instance, lets say you need 6 successes before 4 failures to convince the thieves guild guy. As DM, I might say that if you have 3 failures, one of them counts against the Dukes skill challenge, as one of the Dukes men learns that the PC's are hobnobbing with the criminal underworld, thus making that negotiation a little more difficult...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm not sure I am enamored of this mechanic. The intent is obvious, and a good one, try to eliminate or reduce the "face man" syndrome, where 1 player will do the rolling of the dice for the group.

I like the idea, but I wonder about the practice.....could not the party in the negotiation with the Duke, simply have a couple of characters roll different skills? Does everyone have to make their own roll?
If so what about the character that has no social skills...seems tortuous to make up some excuse for how Athletics will sway the Duke....barring some foreshadowing stating the Duke is a lover of sports.

The hard part for some people might be to accept that you still have to make "DM-convincing", because this can lead to the "Mother-May-I"-situations. But an important thing here might be that there are "default" skills you will use, and only if you really want to do something unusual, you'll have to convince your DM. For a Travel-Scenario, Endurance, Nature or Perception are obvious skills. Using Diplomacy or Thievery would require some explanation, and will probably emerge from the situations that is described and role-played during the challenge. They don't fit into the default framework, but if the DM decides that a recent failure leads the party towards a hostile tribe, diplomacy might help to calm them and acquire some help.

Likewise what if a single roll fails spectacularly? The Demo skill test was to see if players could sneak out of a city...now it strikes me that if a player rolls particularly bad on say a Bluff check, he or she should be caught, normally this would mean a chase or combat.....yet from the Demo description it did not sound like this was the failure possibility.

A single roll generally can't fail spectacularly. But the challenge could (no successes, only failures?) The success vs failure ratio can provide a way to determine what happens. Every roll a failure? Each member of the party is cornered by some guards. A few successes a long the way, but you still fail the challenge? You might get out, but bounty hunters are behind you and others are preparing an ambush...

Flavourwise is it that much of an improvement? I like it for negotiation....I am curious if it could be adapted for traps....for wilderness exploration...not really much of a difference, if the Druid , Ranger, Barbarian...blows their Survival check, then someone always attempted a Spot or Search check to see if they could find a trail. Ultimately overland travel comes down to dice rolls....which is why long duration Fly, Mass Fly, Teleport, and Find the Path could be good things, to cut down the hand waving for finding the Unfindable Temple in the Trackless Jungle.

If all you do is roll dice, the spells are fine solutions. But remember, the rolls can be accompanied with some roleplaying or some exposition from the DM, and this can make it worth to go through these rolls.

 

[Wraithdrit]

Alternately, you could use the 'something bad happens' and 'something good happens' mechanic of easy and hard checks to make the two things mix. Something bad happens during one check means that the other challenge is modified, or something like that.

I ran my first full 4th ed game from the PHB Lite this last weekend, and my players ended up trying to get information out of the town regent. When it was obvious that I was going to require multiple checks to get anything out of him, I went ahead and switched it to a skill challenge. I explained the mechanics to them, and they went to town on the idea, quickly gaining the lord's trust enough to be sent on a small mission to gauge their trustworthiness.

Anyways, point being I found the mechanic easy to use on the fly.

- Wraith

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I could see running them side by side - but with the chance that failures in one could affect both - for instance, lets say you need 6 successes before 4 failures to convince the thieves guild guy. As DM, I might say that if you have 3 failures, one of them counts against the Dukes skill challenge, as one of the Dukes men learns that the PC's are hobnobbing with the criminal underworld, thus making that negotiation a little more difficult...

Instead of making it a direct mechanical impact, you could also use these failures to spin the story a little different. If the PCs fail (or nearly) fail one of the challenges, this might affect later encounters. Maybe one of the Soldiers the Duke sends them is payed by the Thieve's Guild to slip some poison in the PCs food. Whatever makes sense in the context.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Instead of making it a direct mechanical impact, you could also use these failures to spin the story a little different. If the PCs fail (or nearly) fail one of the challenges, this might affect later encounters. Maybe one of the Soldiers the Duke sends them is payed by the Thieve's Guild to slip some poison in the PCs food. Whatever makes sense in the context.

Absolutely - I'm thinking of making the number of failures in a skill challenge affect these sorts of things, pending a full reading of the rules, of course. I can see lots of cool applications.

 

[2eBladeSinger]

Doesn't seem too hard to whip up a skill challenge on the fly.

1. Decide the objective. This should not be something immediate, but longer-term. Things like "traverse the wilderness to get to the city", "find out more about the town's troubles", "learn the secrets of how to build a skyship", for example.

2. Decide the difficulty (moderate is default)

3. Decide the complexity (3 = 8 succ/4 fail)

4. Decide which skills don't apply (if you're a hardass DM)

5. Profit!

Don't forget the most important step:

5.a Success leads to X
Failure leads to Y

I find it helpful to have a clear idea of what the end result of the challenges are before I begin. If I can't clearly define a reward (or more commonly a penalty for failure) then I don't think it's appropriate to use a skill challenge

 

[hbarsquared]

.....could not the party in the negotiation with the Duke, simply have a couple of characters roll different skills? Does everyone have to make their own roll?
If so what about the character that has no social skills...seems tortuous to make up some excuse for how Athletics will sway the Duke....

Here's the thing... Such circumstances won't really happen in 4E, as a result of the overhauling of the skill system in the first place.

If you were to import in the concept of a "skill challenge" into 3E, you would have just these issues. A face man with Diplomacy +53, while the other characters have a highest modifier of +14 in a social skills, and a +32 for their highest skills. Just the fact that 3E allowed such huge discrepancies between modifiers makes a challenge where all party members participate on an even footing impossible.

However, 4E has done two things: reduce the number of skills and equalize modifiers. Rolling several applications of similar skills into one has reduced the "spread" that characters might otherwise have. The investment in one skill in 4E applies to far more situations than a single skill ever did in 3E. Also, the 1/2 level modifier, and the limited number of stacking effects means that all players of a particular level will be able to contribute skills-wise. Even the character with "no social skills" will have a shot at a social challenge.

So, when considering Skill Challenges, one must consider the context in which it is being introduced: the 4E Skills mechanic.