Stifling Innovation
- Thread starter Reigan
- Start date
Going back further in time, the change from descending AC in 1E/2E AD&D to ascending AC in 3E/3.5E D&D confused me at first. I was so use to thinking of descending AC. Eventually I became accustomed to ascending AC after playing 3E for awhile.
Perhaps the ability scores going from 8 upwards in 4E, is very much to avoid confusion. If I saw the D&D ability scores as -1, 0, +1, +2, +3, +4, etc ...., at first I would be hard pressed to know what they mean without a "translation" formula.
Now that I think about it, if the 4E static defenses (AC, Fortitude, Reflex, Will) are changed into dynamic defense rolls where a d20 is rolled with AC-10 added to it (or Fortitude-10, Reflex-10, Will-10), this would make superfluous the "10" in the 4E definitions of static AC, Fortitude, Reflex, Will.
For example, a magic missile INT vs. Reflex attack would be:
- Attacker rolls a d20 and adds +level/2 and their INT modifier
- Defender rolls a d20 and adds their Reflex modifier (Reflex-10)
- For a hit, the total attack roll >= total defense roll.
In such a system with defense rolls in combat, the D&D ability and defense scores going up from 8 upwards would be largely legacy dressing.
For example, a magic missile INT vs. Reflex attack would be:
- Attacker rolls a d20 and adds +level/2 and their INT modifier
- Defender rolls a d20 and adds their Reflex modifier (Reflex-10)
- For a hit, the total attack roll >= total defense roll.
In such a system with defense rolls in combat, the D&D ability and defense scores going up from 8 upwards would be largely legacy dressing.
Last edited:
resistor
First Post
Just to illustrate the problems with the loss of mind share for older editions, consider Paizo's recent Bastards of Erebus issue. It has an article about "Tieflings of Golarion."
They ordered art for it, with their artist guidelines that specify a 2e/3e-ish varied look for tieflings. And EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. came back as a 4e tiefling. Unfortunately, because their schedule was pressed because of the core book release, they didn't have time to get the art redone, so now every tiefling in the article looks like a 4e tiefling.
As a game falls further and further out of mainstream circulation, it loses more and more mindshare. It becomes harder to find players, to find copies of the rules, etc.
In the case of edition upgrades, this is exacerbated because, typically, old game elements are repurposed to mean new things. Anyone recruiting new players for a PF game will likely have to re-educate them about what a tiefling or an eladrin is, what a saving throw means, etc. This creates an even bigger barrier for recruiting new players.
They ordered art for it, with their artist guidelines that specify a 2e/3e-ish varied look for tieflings. And EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. came back as a 4e tiefling. Unfortunately, because their schedule was pressed because of the core book release, they didn't have time to get the art redone, so now every tiefling in the article looks like a 4e tiefling.
As a game falls further and further out of mainstream circulation, it loses more and more mindshare. It becomes harder to find players, to find copies of the rules, etc.
In the case of edition upgrades, this is exacerbated because, typically, old game elements are repurposed to mean new things. Anyone recruiting new players for a PF game will likely have to re-educate them about what a tiefling or an eladrin is, what a saving throw means, etc. This creates an even bigger barrier for recruiting new players.
I'm going to disagree with the "harder to find copies of the rules" part. Most RPGs have PDF versions, there are plenty of online stores that sell second hand books (Amazon, NKG, T&T,...), you can check your local store,... Unless it's something really old or really weird, finding copies of books it's not very hard in general.
I'll back him up a bit.
I live in the D/FW area, and routinely cruise the second hand book stores- the physical ones, anyway- to buy RPG books and non-series sci-fi, fantasy, horror, and mystery novels to send to troops serving overseas.
Despite the advent of D&D 4Ed, most of the D&D books I find on the shelves are 1Ed, 2Ed and 3Ed...almost NO 3.5 Ed or 3PP books. At least, not the better ones, like Spycraft, True20, Midnight or AU/AE. And even some of the 3Ed books are hard to find, like OA and Savage Species.
What innovation has been stifled? I think the OP has things backward. Brand loyalty has not prevented but facilitated WotC's releases of radically new games. Plenty of people would rather "upgrade" than stick with what they've got or try something from another firm.
Will Paizo, with Pathfinder, find success in meeting demand for an actual game that WotC is not meeting? Or will lack of "the brand" weigh more than the qualities of the physical product?
Back in the 1970s and '80s, TSR published more than just D&D, and I remember the subculture of gamers who would look at nothing without the TSR logo on it. No interstellar adventure for them until the release of Star Frontiers! Ravenloft allowed horror. Dark Sun and Planescape made a "weird" setting and "dark fantasy" suddenly legitimate. Ditto every other subject; if there was no TSR release about it, it was off their radar.
Will Paizo, with Pathfinder, find success in meeting demand for an actual game that WotC is not meeting? Or will lack of "the brand" weigh more than the qualities of the physical product?
Back in the 1970s and '80s, TSR published more than just D&D, and I remember the subculture of gamers who would look at nothing without the TSR logo on it. No interstellar adventure for them until the release of Star Frontiers! Ravenloft allowed horror. Dark Sun and Planescape made a "weird" setting and "dark fantasy" suddenly legitimate. Ditto every other subject; if there was no TSR release about it, it was off their radar.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
I have to agree and I'm in the Madison, WI area. Not exactly light on gamers.
Similar Threads
