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Story Elements in RPGs...

Organic themes can arise, yes. I think they'll reflect the chemistry of the group and what everyone can agree on. But organic themes are still by nature going to be a bit more patchwork than those of a game where you say from the beginning "this is going to be sword and sorcery in an untamed land dotted with fallen ruins," and everyone creates characters accordingly.

Funny, I told players "this is going to be sword and sorcery in an untamed land dotted with fallen ruins," and only a minority of them created characters accordingly, *sigh*. :erm: Getting most of them to make genre-appropriate PCs was like pulling teeth. I'm not sure what I need to get a theme across*. Most players just seem to create the PCs they want to play, and ignore all the genre advice. :-S

*I gave em a list of sword & sorcery tropes. I gave them the link to Korgoth of Barbaria on Youtube. And Dio: Holy Diver. And the opening scene of Conan: The Barbarian.
 

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I guess what this thread mainly boils down to is whether or not establishing a theme before you begin can benefit role playing?

I think it can potentially make for a more fun game, but getting everyone on the same page can be hard, as with my swords & sorcery game above. And then yo u either have frustration - "I wanted to explore theme X, but the DM/players are ignoring me" - or drift, where the original theme is forgotten - or railroading, where the theme is shoved down everyone's throats.
 

What if you're running an adventure path or the like? Wouldn't that have the same implications?

Yep. Have you not noticed that, while APs have many fans, they also have many detractors?

But isn't this also the case for something like setting? If you're not into Dark Sun, then playing in a Dark Sun campaign is probably going to suck.

Yep.

In writing A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking noted that every equation you put in an essay or book loses you approximately half your audience. A similar mechanism is at work here - The more specific you, as a GM, make your offering, the fewer folks are going to want to play. Every element that the GM stipulates beforehand (like setting, plot direction, themes, and so on) will narrow the offering so that fewer players will want to play.

So, if you talk about stacking themes on top of the things the GM already tends to set, you're talking about a campaign fewer people will want to play, as compared to a campaign that is otherwise the same, but without the GM picking the theme explicitly. Not to say that this will kill your game, but it is something to note. It is one more thing you, as GM, are taking into your control. You ought to ask yourself if the payoff is sufficient to merit it.


If I want to do a save the world style plot I should pick a certain Genre?

Well, that particular one is too broad. Most sci-fi/fantasy genres include that as an option. Superheroes, swashbucklers, members of the Space Patrol, vampires with souls, and knights in armor all "save the world" now and again.

There are other plot types that don't fit into certain genres as well. Murder Mystery plots, for example, are notoriously difficult to do in the high-magic fantasy genre.

(I guess I was wrong to assume most people understood the basic concepts of literary themes?)

I think most people ignore what they learned in high school English class shortly after graduation. Gamers may read more than average folks, and may even be more prone to talking literary-analysis than most, but I don't think the desire to do so is ubiquitous enough to depend on.

And, even if your people understand literary themes, you'll likely have to discuss with them what you mean by including those themes in game play. What do you mean when you say that you're going to include the theme of "what does it mean to be human?" in your game? In a practical sense, how will this game look different than games that don't have that theme?

If you say you're playing Star Trek, the players who know the show will know how that theme enters pretty clearly. It isn't clear how that theme would enter into your noir-gumshoe game.


So to break it down further- what about on a per adventure basis?

Do any of you use or think about theme while writing adventures?

These days, I consider theme largely as it pertains to characters, not as it pertains to adventures. In my Deadlands game, one of the characters has in his history that he broke under pressure when faced with a horrible monster, and that haunts him. So, I make a habit of choosing stuff that'll yank his chain on occasion.

Mind you, most (not all, but most) of the themes for the characters in my game are tied to plot elements in their backgrounds - so, by referencing the background, I cannot help but reference the theme.
 

Funny, I told players "this is going to be sword and sorcery in an untamed land dotted with fallen ruins," and only a minority of them created characters accordingly, *sigh*. :erm: Getting most of them to make genre-appropriate PCs was like pulling teeth. I'm not sure what I need to get a theme across*. Most players just seem to create the PCs they want to play, and ignore all the genre advice. :-S

*I gave em a list of sword & sorcery tropes. I gave them the link to Korgoth of Barbaria on Youtube. And Dio: Holy Diver. And the opening scene of Conan: The Barbarian.

Ouch. Yeah, I would sometimes get that myself; it's kind of hard to run a Ramayana-inspired game if most of your players haven't really gotten into Indian epics. That's partly why I've moved toward the "write a list, let them vote" mode of campaign creation; among other things it helps me judge what sources they've already been exposed to, and what they're willing to try out. And if none of them have votes that are remotely similar, maybe that's a bad sign...
 

Getting most of them to make genre-appropriate PCs was like pulling teeth.

Sometimes it's what you're telling (or not telling) the audience, sometimes it's the audience.

Best campaign I ever ran was in 1993-4- a Verne/Wells/Moorcock/Wild, Wild West/Space:1889 themed campaign with a dash of 007, anime and so forth run in HERO. I gave the players a rough outline and surprise!

Every. Damn. PC was setting appropriate.

In 2009, I dusted off that campaign to use with a different group, advanced a decade and a half of campaign time...but in M&M. Only about half of the PCs were setting appropriate, and one guy hadn't even read the handout that included info about Martians, dinosaurs on Venus, and so forth.
 

Also, if you set a strong theme to start with, you will probably tend to work with blinders on, and fail to notice themes that are emerging organically in play that you could take advantage of.

QFT. This is exactly my experience. I've had wonderful campaigns which explored eg the Futility of Evil: CE PC Mortis kidnaps the LG Queen he's in love with, uses a Helm of Opposite Alignment to make her CE too "so they can be together". Guess what? She's not that LG person you fell in love with anymore. The irate CE PC Mortis then murdered the now-very-CE Queen; this was a breach of a Norn-enforced treaty between Mortis' boss Graz'zt and the Queen's deity Thrin, which resulted in Mortis being eventually hunted down and executed by Graz'zt's other henchmen as a 'traitor'.

That campaign actually taught the *player* a moral lesson, he never played CE PCs again after that, and I think it actually had some impact on his IRL worldview. But if I had tried to force the theme, rather than it emerge naturally from play, it would have been disastrous.
 

I write my adventures 1 session at a time, generally as a complete "story" or cliffhanger. As a result, if I have a crappy hook that you still agreed to bite into, at the end of the session, I guage player desire/intent and that's what I base the next session on.

That's the way to do it, yup. For RPG purposes the short story or TV show episode is a far more useful model than the novel or trilogy; movies/films lie somewhere in-between, IME films can make a good model for 1-shot play such as at a Convention (although Twilight Zone type 1-shot stories are a more practical model), possibly for a short 3-6 session campaign, but not for ongoing campaigns.
 

These days, I consider theme largely as it pertains to characters, not as it pertains to adventures. In my Deadlands game, one of the characters has in his history that he broke under pressure when faced with a horrible monster, and that haunts him. So, I make a habit of choosing stuff that'll yank his chain on occasion.

I definitely attach themes to NPCs - that works, because NPCs are under my control. It gives me a hook to make RPing them interesting. To my mind that's very different from seeking to impose a theme on PCs. If a players has a strong theme in mind for their PC, and it interests me, I will seek to help them explore it. I find that is fairly rare in D&D, though. Usually PC-relevant themes emerge in play, and often only when the PC's story is already all told - as with my Mortis example above.

Edit: Playing Savage Worlds zombie game, I thought I put in several fairly strong themes for my PC. Either the GM didn't notice them or didn't like them, or the campaign as written was too railroady, because I've not seen them addressed in play, and my attempts to do so have been shut down pretty hard.
 

Ouch. Yeah, I would sometimes get that myself; it's kind of hard to run a Ramayana-inspired game if most of your players haven't really gotten into Indian epics. That's partly why I've moved toward the "write a list, let them vote" mode of campaign creation; among other things it helps me judge what sources they've already been exposed to, and what they're willing to try out. And if none of them have votes that are remotely similar, maybe that's a bad sign...

GMing at the D&D Meetup, I do a: "This is what I'll be running, who wants to play?" thing - ie the players should choose whether to play the campaign based on whether the premise interests them. What actually happens:

(A) Player Group A is players who have played in my prior campaigns. They think "Oh yeah, S'mon is a pretty decent DM, we have that slot free, we'll play in his game."
(B) Player Group B is new players who haven't played with me before. They think "Must get into a 4e game! Hmm, that game's open, let's apply."

Some of (A) and some of (B) do then create appropriate PCs, but most don't. I've had most luck with providing pregens with a very brief background sketch, and then telling the player they can alter the PC however they like after the first session, as long as name, race, sex, and probably power source stay the same.
 

Just like I wouldn't recommend a DM thunking down the Darksun books and saying make characters, without any input from the players...

Could you expand on this? Running a Forgotten Realms game, that's pretty much exactly what I did - "Here's the FRPG, make characters". Seemed to work ok. Of course the players are under no obligation to play Dark Sun (etc) if they don't want to - I probably wouldn't be interested in DS myself. So if the DM HAS to have Player X, the DM is damn well going to have to run the campaign Player X wants to play. I'm aware that that is how some groups do things. :devil:
 

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