Storytelling or Roleplaying?
- Thread starter Majoru Oakheart
- Start date
Dragonhelm
Knight of Solamnia
I've seen a number of games where the game play was focused more on rules than story. However, you can have just the opposite problem as well - story overriding the game. That seems to be what's happening here.
Role-playing is a communal experience. It takes both players and DM to craft an adventure. The DM sets the stage, but in the end, the players are the actors. That can be tricky at times, as there are so many different types of players. One player can focus on storytelling, while another player can focus on combat, while a third can focus on puzzle-solving (and so on and so forth). The DM needs to provide something for all of these types of players.
The DM has to realize his role in all of this. His responsibility is to provide the players with a good time. He's part storyteller, part puzzlemaster, part entertainer, and part magician.
Part of this overall duty is to have a good understanding of pacing. I'm a firm believer of using pacing to enhance a game. If it's going too slow, throw a monster in. If there's too much fighting, throw in a puzzle, trap, or some roleplaying. If your party is split, know when to go between groups. Leave one in suspense as you go to the other one (kind of like a TV show).
It's a tough job! You have so much to balance.
In this particular case, the DM is forgetting his job as entertainer, and is focusing too much on story. He's forgetting that the players control the characters, not him. They are the ones who drive the story.
Rules systems are independent of role-playing. It's the players that bring the RP to the table. I'm running a very story-driven 4e game right now, and it's a blast. 4e is no more to blame for bad role-playing than 3e or any other edition or game system is. So it can be done.
I like the advice given in the thread about volunteering to DM a game sometime. Maybe the DM in question just hasn't seen another way. However, if that doesn't work out, don't be afraid to say, "Hey, I appreciate the invite, but I don't feel that our play styles mesh the best, so I'm not going to continue. Best of luck to you." I made the decision once not to game with some friends since they do mercenary-style games and I like heroic games. We're all still friends, so all is good.
Best of luck on this issue.
Role-playing is a communal experience. It takes both players and DM to craft an adventure. The DM sets the stage, but in the end, the players are the actors. That can be tricky at times, as there are so many different types of players. One player can focus on storytelling, while another player can focus on combat, while a third can focus on puzzle-solving (and so on and so forth). The DM needs to provide something for all of these types of players.
The DM has to realize his role in all of this. His responsibility is to provide the players with a good time. He's part storyteller, part puzzlemaster, part entertainer, and part magician.
Part of this overall duty is to have a good understanding of pacing. I'm a firm believer of using pacing to enhance a game. If it's going too slow, throw a monster in. If there's too much fighting, throw in a puzzle, trap, or some roleplaying. If your party is split, know when to go between groups. Leave one in suspense as you go to the other one (kind of like a TV show).
It's a tough job! You have so much to balance.
In this particular case, the DM is forgetting his job as entertainer, and is focusing too much on story. He's forgetting that the players control the characters, not him. They are the ones who drive the story.
Rules systems are independent of role-playing. It's the players that bring the RP to the table. I'm running a very story-driven 4e game right now, and it's a blast. 4e is no more to blame for bad role-playing than 3e or any other edition or game system is. So it can be done.
I like the advice given in the thread about volunteering to DM a game sometime. Maybe the DM in question just hasn't seen another way. However, if that doesn't work out, don't be afraid to say, "Hey, I appreciate the invite, but I don't feel that our play styles mesh the best, so I'm not going to continue. Best of luck to you." I made the decision once not to game with some friends since they do mercenary-style games and I like heroic games. We're all still friends, so all is good.
Best of luck on this issue.
I don't go quite this far, but it seems fun, and I'd really enjoy it.
We played a lot of combat heavy games in 2e. It' ain't the rules.
What's really frightening is that these people think 4e doesn't allow roleplay because they can't make baskets or sing (no craft, profession or perform skills).
Generally, I define roleplaying as the social interaction stuff between characters (PC or NPC) and the motivations behind PC's choices and decisions. And properly role-played, the social interaction stuff is driven by the PC's motivations and background. It's usually a self-imposed behaviour guidelines by the player.
None of that takes rules. Roleplay can affect combat, but it doesn't mean combat has to suck, or that your PC has to suck at combat.
A GM should only prompt players with choices when it appears the group is stuck on what to do. It should be as though the GM were helping a new player.
A GM should setup situations and react to what the players do next. He should not actively judge them or determine "Good Choice!" If he wants to follow a "Say Yes" mentality, then this is even more critical, that he simply abjudicate what happens next, in a fashion that allows any reasonable course of action to have a reasonable chance of success.
If the GM wants to have a less combat heavy game, he should have fewer foes, and less NPCs running around that heavily armed PCs are motivated to kill.
Generally, a murder mystery has little combat. Because the PCs don't know to to kill until the bad guy sends some thugs to take them out, and when they PCs finally catch up to him.
A slaver caravan is prime combat material. PCs love killing bad guys, and posing as them to meet the buyer, so they can kill him as well. Armed bad guys is asking the PCs to attack.
The GM doesn't know how to GM an RPG. It's just that simple. They do all play with the same principals. You get player behavior based on what your put in front of them. You get a railroad, by not letting the PCs play the game.
I can see that adventure sucking if we were playing Vampire. The rules don't matter. The way it was run does.
What's really frightening is that these people think 4e doesn't allow roleplay because they can't make baskets or sing (no craft, profession or perform skills).
Generally, I define roleplaying as the social interaction stuff between characters (PC or NPC) and the motivations behind PC's choices and decisions. And properly role-played, the social interaction stuff is driven by the PC's motivations and background. It's usually a self-imposed behaviour guidelines by the player.
None of that takes rules. Roleplay can affect combat, but it doesn't mean combat has to suck, or that your PC has to suck at combat.
A GM should only prompt players with choices when it appears the group is stuck on what to do. It should be as though the GM were helping a new player.
A GM should setup situations and react to what the players do next. He should not actively judge them or determine "Good Choice!" If he wants to follow a "Say Yes" mentality, then this is even more critical, that he simply abjudicate what happens next, in a fashion that allows any reasonable course of action to have a reasonable chance of success.
If the GM wants to have a less combat heavy game, he should have fewer foes, and less NPCs running around that heavily armed PCs are motivated to kill.
Generally, a murder mystery has little combat. Because the PCs don't know to to kill until the bad guy sends some thugs to take them out, and when they PCs finally catch up to him.
A slaver caravan is prime combat material. PCs love killing bad guys, and posing as them to meet the buyer, so they can kill him as well. Armed bad guys is asking the PCs to attack.
The GM doesn't know how to GM an RPG. It's just that simple. They do all play with the same principals. You get player behavior based on what your put in front of them. You get a railroad, by not letting the PCs play the game.
I can see that adventure sucking if we were playing Vampire. The rules don't matter. The way it was run does.
Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
I gather from talking to him that it is as far back as Basic D&D.
Henry
Autoexreginated
THAT's what it reminds me of! I was trying to place it, but had almost forgotten about those things.
Desdichado
Legend
I dunno; if he obviously thinks he's hot stuff, and the rest of the group seems to really dig his style, then hey! It's working. Keep it up.Anyway, yeah, this guy needs some pointers re: DMing. Maybe some other kind of help too. Dunno.
Just... without me, thanks. There's no reason to rock a boat that's getting the rest of the group where they want to go. If there's that much discrepancy between play styles, chances are you're not going to bridge that with a few pointers. Hopefully there's another gaming option open to you, MO.
Oryan77
Adventurer
Finally, a DM that knows how to play this damn game!
I don't know how many times I've had to speak up as a player and tell the group what my character is doing. That gets old real fast. The only thing better than this style of gaming is if the DM said, "You meet the other PCs, you do a bunch of stuff, you save the princess. The end." Then I don't have to hear all the boring details from each individual player and what his PC is doing next.
If I have to hear the party fighter ask the farm girl about what it is like growing turnips one more time as if that makes him a roleplayer, I'm going to quit playing D&D and take up writing for Jack Chick. This DM is brilliant. He does the roleplaying for you in order to speed up the game...I applaud him for his genius.
Like others have said though, I don't see why he'd care about the edition...you don't even need an edition for this kind of game. There are some good points about it that I learn and walk away with. The guy must be good at describing a scene and making you imagine it really well. I like the detail that he uses to describe the scenes...especially if it's off the top of his head. He just needs to learn to let the players help describe the scene by asking them, "What do you do" rather than telling them what they do.
I don't know how many times I've had to speak up as a player and tell the group what my character is doing. That gets old real fast. The only thing better than this style of gaming is if the DM said, "You meet the other PCs, you do a bunch of stuff, you save the princess. The end." Then I don't have to hear all the boring details from each individual player and what his PC is doing next.
If I have to hear the party fighter ask the farm girl about what it is like growing turnips one more time as if that makes him a roleplayer, I'm going to quit playing D&D and take up writing for Jack Chick. This DM is brilliant. He does the roleplaying for you in order to speed up the game...I applaud him for his genius.
Like others have said though, I don't see why he'd care about the edition...you don't even need an edition for this kind of game. There are some good points about it that I learn and walk away with. The guy must be good at describing a scene and making you imagine it really well. I like the detail that he uses to describe the scenes...especially if it's off the top of his head. He just needs to learn to let the players help describe the scene by asking them, "What do you do" rather than telling them what they do.
Celebrim
Legend
Yeah, I'll second that. The DM is obviously doing a great job of creating an immersive game where the participants can really imagine what is happening. I applaud him for that, I just think he needs to demand more from his players. All that immersion is pointless if it doesn't create a more organic intimately connected interactive role play.
This is one of those threads where I really wish that the DM could speak for himself.
The Ghost
Explorer
Maybe. I really wish we could hear more from other players in this group. As a player, I would find myself restless without full control of my thoughts and actions. But if that's what they like - you know, more power to them.
That's the best part about RPGs; we can all take the same rules and end up with vastly different games.
Seconded.
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