Storytelling vs Roleplaying

[Hussar]

LS, I'm not all that familiar with BW, so, I can't really offer any specific advice.

I know that in say, Spirit of the Century, the Fate points that you have are directly tied to your character's aspects. You can't just change the scene willy nilly. Any change you, as the player, want to add in has to be intimately tied to your character - thus the diamond dog example. Because of that, I think you would avoid your BW problem. The players just can't declare that the cave is this or that. Any declaration they make has to come from their character and thus is automatically tied to at least some sort of plot.

The player makes all decisions for the character but the character usually doesn't have the knowledge that he/she is just a puppet being controlled by an outside force (the player). If the DM is handling things well there will be no "script" and the players will need only information about the world apart from thier characters rather than "direction".

But, this is where I have troubles. Why does having a player instead of the DM add in information about the world suddenly make the game "scripted"?

Is the player specifically playing his character when using a Fate/Action point? Probably not. You're likely right there. But, I'm not sure why having a player step outside of his character for thirty seconds during a game suddenly makes it not a role playing game. After all, and I think we all agree here, players step outside of their character all the time. Why does this specifically make the game no longer a role playing game?

 

[ExploderWizard]

But, this is where I have troubles. Why does having a player instead of the DM add in information about the world suddenly make the game "scripted"?

Is the player specifically playing his character when using a Fate/Action point? Probably not. You're likely right there. But, I'm not sure why having a player step outside of his character for thirty seconds during a game suddenly makes it not a role playing game. After all, and I think we all agree here, players step outside of their character all the time. Why does this specifically make the game no longer a role playing game?

The script reference wasn't about players. That was a response to maddman75's post when he mentioned that the DM has no control over the script. My point was that in an unscripted game then there is nothing to have control over in the first place.

Stepping outside the character is purely an immersion issue and it happens all the time with many groups. Doing so while still participating in the game is a separate issue. When table chatter about OOC stuff happens, the action and play of the game is put on hold. When a player steps outside the character role while still shaping/ influencing actual gameplay the storytelling starts.

 

[Doug McCrae]

When a player steps outside the character role while still shaping/ influencing actual gameplay the storytelling starts.

Not at all, as has already been mentioned many times. If a player gives another player tactical advice he's shaping play but not storytelling. If the GM consults a player who is an acknowledged expert on some field, say medieval weaponry, the player is shaping play but not storytelling. If a player asks the GM to make the monsters weaker or give out more magic items, he's shaping play but not storytelling. If the group have a discussion about a rules interpretation or what houserule to use, as happens frequently in rpgs, the players are shaping play but not storytelling.

It could even be argued that when James Bond's player spends a hero point to have a gold brick to hand to beat Oddjob with he is not primarily storytelling. He's mostly just trying to win, within the restrictions of style and setting. It's really gamist, not narrativist. This is exactly how the players in my M&M game spend their hero points. They don't give a crap about story, they want their PCs to beat the bad guy or solve the mystery.

I've seen this point made before about what you are calling storytelling mechanics. Fate points in WFRP or SotC, hero points in James Bond and M&M. They might seem to be mechanisms similar to those in Munchausen and Once Upon A Time, but because they exist in traditional challenge oriented rpgs the way they are used is totally different.

Another point is that these mechanics are very limited in scope. They only affect the 'PC sphere'. Ie the field of influence of the PC, his history, his friends etc. Altering this 'sphere' has always been part of roleplaying. If you make a decision about what sort of person your character is you are necessarily deciding things about the world, about the character's environment, how he was brought up and so on. No man is an island. You simply cannot draw as clear a distinction as you are trying to do between PC and world. The two are intimately connected.

 

[maddman75]

The player makes all decisions for the character but the character usually doesn't have the knowledge that he/she is just a puppet being controlled by an outside force (the player). If the DM is handling things well there will be no "script" and the players will need only information about the world apart from thier characters rather than "direction".

The character doesn't "know" anything because the character doesn't exist. If by this you mean the character is played as if he doesn't know anything about being a character in a roleplaying game, I agree for the vast majority of games. There's nothing about the player using other criteria to make decisions while still maintaining player illusion. A player may have his character do something that is not in their best interest, were they a living breathing rational person, like go into a dark hole full of monsters hoping to steal shiny things from them. But the player justifies it because if the character doesn't, he doesn't get to participate in the game.

One of the best skills a player can learn is to play the meta-game, in a good sense. To not only have fun themselves, but to try and make things fun and interesting for everyone there.

As far as script I mean 'what the characters will say'. The script is written during play, by the players. This is all I was referring to.

Giving no direction is a valid way to play, though you run the risk of a boring session. I'm not gaming every day after school any more. When I get some time to game, I want it to be fun. If it isn't spontaneously fun, I expect the GM to give us some direction. If he doesn't, then IMO he's not a very good GM.