Str of Kadun, too powerful?
- Thread starter wraith8
- Start date
Darklone
Registered User
One big problem with simply adding lotsa spells to spell lists is that all divine casters gain a huge boost in power.
Giving those dudes who are already boosted another boost in the form of spells that emulate others class abilities is crazy.
Allowing these same spells now in level 1 is .... Scarred Lands.
Giving those dudes who are already boosted another boost in the form of spells that emulate others class abilities is crazy.
Allowing these same spells now in level 1 is .... Scarred Lands.
James McMurray
First Post
Nightfall said:
Overpowered: The spell that lets a weapon perform touch attacks instead of regular attacks.
Not suitable for the class: The spell that turns you into an elemental creature and heals you like a Heal spell. Turning into an elemental is fine for arcane casters, but the benefits of a Heal spell shouldn't be available for one level higher arcane spell. See also the Timeheal series of spells, which allow wizards to heal people.
Underpowered: I'm at work right now, so I can't go looking for one.
LifebaneSoulshadow
First Post
RR1 and RR2
Just a comment in general. The books are fantastic source material, however I find myself as a DM looking at most anything from them with a fine tooth comb. Much of it is either poorly balanced or not balanced at all. So all in all, they're great books to have. I use them, but I often read and re-read a spell several times before allowing it in any campaign.
Examples:
RR1
Assassin's senses, Bottomless Pit, Darkstaff, Multiplicity, Purifying Flames, Remove resistance, Rend the sovereign soul, Shadow shield, Shadow images, Shadow strike, etc...
RR2
Affliction, Bladethirst, Enhanced senses, Ricochet, Shocking missile, Vampiric weapon, Veil of lust, Persistent missiles, etc...
The above were lists along with many I didnt list that I had to modify to be reasonable. (tweaking either the effects, caster level, durations or in some cases removing entirely, etc..) I cant imagine why they were published in such a state, other than to have a campaign world that is overpowered in many respects. If I were the writer/editor these never would have slipped past, unless that was their intent.
Lifebane Soulshadow *
Just a comment in general. The books are fantastic source material, however I find myself as a DM looking at most anything from them with a fine tooth comb. Much of it is either poorly balanced or not balanced at all. So all in all, they're great books to have. I use them, but I often read and re-read a spell several times before allowing it in any campaign.
Examples:
RR1
Assassin's senses, Bottomless Pit, Darkstaff, Multiplicity, Purifying Flames, Remove resistance, Rend the sovereign soul, Shadow shield, Shadow images, Shadow strike, etc...
RR2
Affliction, Bladethirst, Enhanced senses, Ricochet, Shocking missile, Vampiric weapon, Veil of lust, Persistent missiles, etc...
The above were lists along with many I didnt list that I had to modify to be reasonable. (tweaking either the effects, caster level, durations or in some cases removing entirely, etc..) I cant imagine why they were published in such a state, other than to have a campaign world that is overpowered in many respects. If I were the writer/editor these never would have slipped past, unless that was their intent.
Lifebane Soulshadow *
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
James McMurray said:
Essential Weapon does not however grant you ghost touch NOR does it work against deflection bonus, NOR sacred bonuses. So while natural and metal armors are easy to by pass, the enhancement bonuses from said armor are still in play.
James McMurray said:
Elemental Kiss I don't remember healing you...but if it does, it's only a druid only spell. Lesser, Greater and Regular Timeheals, sure a little over powered, but no more than having wizards use up spell levels to make healing spells. And there are PLENTY of other worlds that do that.
James McMurray said:Underpowered: I'm at work right now, so I can't go looking for one.
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
LifebaneSoulshadow said:
Or you just prefer to nerf spellcasters from making spells that are fun and of great use to both PCs and NPCs. Plus when you're facing off against a High Gorgon Blood Witch, Remove Resistance can mean a lot. Same is true for Assasin Sense. Darkstaff is a nice necromantic spell, and certainly a nice little trademark. Rend the Soverign Soul, makes it easier for enchantments to work right for a change instead of "oh gee now I have to send out Succubi to ensure charms can work right." I will agree Shocking Missiles need errating and it did get errated. But the others, I felt had no problem getting past me.
Quite honestly I feel there are a LOT of Dms out there that just feel "Gee I have to tone down these spells or the PCs will actually ACCOMPLISH something."
the Jester
Legend
Nightfall said:
Hm, what level is that? I think it's important to balance spells at their best effect, since that's when you're likely to use 'em. (For instance, why bother casting this one when fighting a spectre?)
Nightfall said:
Oooh, just because other worlds let you do something you shouldn't doesn't make it okay! One of the biggest things about arcane spells in 3e is that they don't heal. I throw out anything that works around this (with the obvious exception of things like wish and its like).
Nightfall
Sage of the Scarred Lands
Jester,
Essential Blade is a 5th level druid, 5th level cleric, 5th level wizard/sorcerer and 4th level Bard spell. It does work on natural attacks. I was however innaccurate about it not affecting incorporeal beings. It does work against them. But it only works on natural armor and ignores hardness rating.
I would also like to point out that Elemental Kiss is a 8thh level cleric, 7th level druid, and 8th level wiz/sorcer spell.
Lesser, Greater, and regular Timeheals, while they do heal people, require to make Fort save in order for them to work properly. Not to mention the lesser and regular version DON't do much against ability damage, energy drains, or other effects that cannot be naturally healed.
Essential Blade is a 5th level druid, 5th level cleric, 5th level wizard/sorcerer and 4th level Bard spell. It does work on natural attacks. I was however innaccurate about it not affecting incorporeal beings. It does work against them. But it only works on natural armor and ignores hardness rating.
I would also like to point out that Elemental Kiss is a 8thh level cleric, 7th level druid, and 8th level wiz/sorcer spell.
Lesser, Greater, and regular Timeheals, while they do heal people, require to make Fort save in order for them to work properly. Not to mention the lesser and regular version DON't do much against ability damage, energy drains, or other effects that cannot be naturally healed.
LifebaneSoulshadow
First Post
What's kinda funny is...
As a player I typically play a spellcaster. To be honest they are the more challenging and interesting of the classes to play, in my opinion. However with years and years of DM'ing behind me, I can look at some spells and understand the forthcoming down the road balance issues. That said, and it is an opinion, I find a LOT of the material in RR1 and RR2 to be out of balance. Like I said, I own the books. I use them. They are in fact fantastic source material, that I often draw from. I just find that most things I must look at very critically before I allow them in a campaign. Some are fine, many aren't.
And I dont think toning down some of those that are obviously out of balance is nerfing spellcasters. I play one
It all depends on the campaign you're running. If you want a HIGH magic, where spellcasters rule all others, the spells rock for that. If you want a semblance of balance between spellcasters to the other classes, then you have to adjust a lot of the stuff. (it isnt just the spells I have issue with mind you, some of the other items and magic items are just as badly out of whack)
Like I said, I dont see how the editor and writer could have published a text with such gross imbalance (again this is subjective), if that weren't the intent. So likely RR1 and RR2 and Scarred Lands was intended as a high magic campaign world. (I've played some Scarred Lands as well so I'm not wholly ignorant of which I speak.)
To Nightfall, Scarred Lands is fine. He runs a different kind of game than I do. To each their own. My current campaign has 4 spellcasters out of 6 players in it. They love it, so I must be doing something right.
Lifebane Soulshadow *
As a player I typically play a spellcaster. To be honest they are the more challenging and interesting of the classes to play, in my opinion. However with years and years of DM'ing behind me, I can look at some spells and understand the forthcoming down the road balance issues. That said, and it is an opinion, I find a LOT of the material in RR1 and RR2 to be out of balance. Like I said, I own the books. I use them. They are in fact fantastic source material, that I often draw from. I just find that most things I must look at very critically before I allow them in a campaign. Some are fine, many aren't.
And I dont think toning down some of those that are obviously out of balance is nerfing spellcasters. I play one
It all depends on the campaign you're running. If you want a HIGH magic, where spellcasters rule all others, the spells rock for that. If you want a semblance of balance between spellcasters to the other classes, then you have to adjust a lot of the stuff. (it isnt just the spells I have issue with mind you, some of the other items and magic items are just as badly out of whack)
Like I said, I dont see how the editor and writer could have published a text with such gross imbalance (again this is subjective), if that weren't the intent. So likely RR1 and RR2 and Scarred Lands was intended as a high magic campaign world. (I've played some Scarred Lands as well so I'm not wholly ignorant of which I speak.)
To Nightfall, Scarred Lands is fine. He runs a different kind of game than I do. To each their own. My current campaign has 4 spellcasters out of 6 players in it. They love it, so I must be doing something right.
Lifebane Soulshadow *
ruleslawyer
Registered User
Back to topic:
Why on earth does everyone think that SoK is overpowered? The spell requires an absurdly difficult to get material component, is 8th level, and bestows an enhancement bonus to Strength which maxes out at +20. You're talking a +10 damage bonus that doesn't stack with the usual +3 damage bonus (from a +6 belt of Strength) that will be common at these levels and that lasts for only one minute per level. Moreover, keep in mind that SoK is balanced with 3.0 rules, not 3.5. In 3.0, you could cast a triple-empowered bull's strength for an average Str bonus of +9 that lasted all day and incurred no material component cost or component-based limitation.
Generally, when one gets to these levels, casters aren't really so well off using their high-level spells to give their fighter buddies non-stackable buffs. I'd sooner have a horrid wilting on hand than an SoK.
That said, sure there's a bunch of stuff in R&R and R&RII that's not so well-balanced, but I'm with James McMurray on R&R, at least (I DON'T think that R&RII is "utter trash," though it hasn't seen much use IMC; I do like the paladin spells in it, though).
Why on earth does everyone think that SoK is overpowered? The spell requires an absurdly difficult to get material component, is 8th level, and bestows an enhancement bonus to Strength which maxes out at +20. You're talking a +10 damage bonus that doesn't stack with the usual +3 damage bonus (from a +6 belt of Strength) that will be common at these levels and that lasts for only one minute per level. Moreover, keep in mind that SoK is balanced with 3.0 rules, not 3.5. In 3.0, you could cast a triple-empowered bull's strength for an average Str bonus of +9 that lasted all day and incurred no material component cost or component-based limitation.
Generally, when one gets to these levels, casters aren't really so well off using their high-level spells to give their fighter buddies non-stackable buffs. I'd sooner have a horrid wilting on hand than an SoK.
That said, sure there's a bunch of stuff in R&R and R&RII that's not so well-balanced, but I'm with James McMurray on R&R, at least (I DON'T think that R&RII is "utter trash," though it hasn't seen much use IMC; I do like the paladin spells in it, though).
