STR vs. BAB (a.k.a. Is level adjustment worth it?)

[Tessarael]

And here are the comparisons using the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Feel free to double-check them for accuracy. I think the Half-Ogre Dragon Disciple rocks over the other alternatives by level 17.

Half-Orc Bard 2/Fighter 3/Dragon Disciple 2
HD: 2d6+3d10+2d12+7*Con ~= 36.5+7*Con
BAB: 5
STR: 18 + 2 race + 1 level + 2 class = 23 (+6 bonus)
Melee: +11
Greatsword: 2d6+9 ~= 16

Half-Ogre Bard 2/Fighter 1/Dragon Disciple 1
HD: 2d8+2d6+1d10+1d12+6*Con = 28+6*Con
BAB: 3
STR: 18 + 6 race + 1 level = 25 (+7 bonus)
Melee: +9 (after -1 from size)
Greatsword: 3d6+10 ~= 20.5



Half-Orc Bard 2/Fighter 3/Dragon Disciple 7
HD: 2d6+3d10+7d12+12*Con ~= 69+12*Con
BAB: 9/4
STR: 18 + 2 race + 3 level + 4 class = 28 (+9 bonus)
Melee: +18/+13
Greatsword: 2d6+13 ~= 20

Half-Ogre Bard 2/Fighter 1/Dragon Disciple 6
HD: 2d8+2d6+1d10+6d12+11*Con = 60.5+11*Con
BAB: 7/2
STR: 18 + 6 race + 2 level + 4 class = 30 (+10 bonus)
Melee: +16/+11 (after -1 from size)
Greatsword: 3d6+15 ~= 25.5



Half-Orc Bard 3/Fighter 4/Dragon Disciple 10
HD: 3d6+4d10+10d12+17*Con ~= 97.5+17*Con
BAB: 13/8/3
STR: 18 + 2 race + 4 level + 8 class = 32 (+11 bonus)
Melee: +24/+19/+14
Greatsword: 2d6+16 ~= 23

Half-Ogre Bard 2/Fighter 2/Dragon Disciple 10
HD: 2d8+2d6+2d10+10d12+16*Con = 92+16*Con
BAB: 11/6/1
STR: 18 + 6 race + 4 level + 8 class = 36 (+13 bonus)
Melee: +23/+18/+13 (after -1 from size)
Greatsword: 3d6+19 ~= 29.5

 

[GakToid]

Comments

I forgot to change the half-ogre HD to d10 due to the half-dragon template. That will give those builds a couple of extra hit points.

Gort,
* That's why we've added the 2HD of giant. We felt it was more accurate than making it +2 LA. As you can see, it ends up pretty balanced.

Tessarael, comments and questions:
* You for got to take the -1 to attack for being large.
* Why bard?

It looks like the prestige class is pretty balanced with the template.
- spells and blindsense - class has, template does not
- BAB - same for both (class vs template + fighter)
- class - bite primary attack, template - claws primary attack
- abilities, natural armor - same for both
- save for breath weapon - 10 + class level + Con modifier, 10 + 1/2 half-dragon’s racial HD + Con modifier
- flight - land speed for class, twice land speed for template
- class - type does not change, template - type changes to dragon
- class - fewer feats than template + fighter
Any commentary?

Other things to consider...
* More LA means your saving throws and skills are going to really low. (Not that a half-ogre/half-dragon ever uses skills.)

-Gak Toid

 

[Tessarael]

Quote Gaktoid, "You for got to take the -1 to attack for being large. Why bard?"

My bad on the size attack penalty. Let me edit that ...

Bard, because Bard has better BAB progression. You have to have spontaneous arcane casting to Dragon Disciple so it's Bard or Sorcerer. But neither Bard or Fighter are favored classes of Half-Orc (or Half-Ogre??), so the progression has to keep the Bard/Fighter levels pegged within 1 of each other to avoid the XP penalty. I'd be inclined to go for something like Bard 4/Fighter 4/Barbarian 2/Dragon Disciple 10 for a 20th level Half-Orc build.

A major benefit of Dragon Disciple prestige class is better HP than the Half-Dragon template build.

 

[Darklone]

Better hitpoints AND HD!

 

[Saeviomagy]

Quote Gaktoid, "You for got to take the -1 to attack for being large. Why bard?"

My bad on the size attack penalty. Let me edit that ...

Bard, because Bard has better BAB progression. You have to have spontaneous arcane casting to Dragon Disciple so it's Bard or Sorcerer.

If you only take 2 levels of bard, then this argument is moot.

Considered taking 1 (or two) levels of sorceror and then rounding out with monk instead? You get the nice benefit of full strength on all unarmed attacks... Although I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell us that natural weapons don't count as being unarmed...

 

[Darklone]

Bard for DD is only worth it if you take at least 4 levels for these nice 2nd level spells.

Yeah, monks flurry and unarmed advantages don't count for natural weapons.

 

[xazil]

Hexblade is also a good path to DD as you dont even take BAB hit from it and get other nice things like mettle.

 

[Bauglir]

I disagree. The -2 hit to 3 stats is pretty tough to overcome. It's difficult to build a viable half-ogre who isn't a fighter "tank". Even then, lots of the cool manuevers that make a fighter more than just "I hit him again with my sword" (Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack, etc.) are very difficult to qualify for when you're taking penalties to Dex and Int.

While it is true that the half-ogre is a poor pick for anything other than a tank, they make an exceptionally good choice for exactly that purpose. Considering that they can dump every stat except Str and Con, suit up in full plate and a 2-handed weapon (A Fullblade springs to mind), and still be quite effective (not so versatile, but absolutely devastating in melee) they don't really feel the penalties. A boring character perhaps but I've seen many players that only seem interested in playing max-strength tanks, which can become a significant problem when their damage output outstrips other part members to the point where they're dropping significant opponents in 1 hit..

 

[Darklone]

Half-ogre: Often people forget that for many point buy systems it's no problem to get decent dex and int and still maintain a higher strength than a human with the same other stats...

 

[GakToid]

One other thing I had forgotten is that the half-dragons can use a bite attack in addition to the two-handed weapon. So they'll get the same number of attacks as the half-orc AND have a higher melee attack bonus for the last one (bite at -5 vs. weapon at -15).

-Gak Toid