Strategies vs. High AC (My Players Stay Out!)

[I'm A Banana]

I've got a few AC monkeys IMC, and I'm looking for ways to bring them down off of their high horses. The worst offenders are:

1) Githzerai Monk + Feral Template (from Savage Species)......+6 natural armor, +4 'mage armor', obscene dex, and a great Wisdom....his AC is regularly in the '30's. Also has Combat Expertise, so.....

2) Feral (from Savage Species) Vanara (from OA) Druid.......not nearly as bad as the above, but still bad enough....and Combat Expertise....

I need ways to make them respect monsters again......while neither of them really ever do damage (the monk's "flurry of whiffs," and the DR mean he doesn't get much), I can't lay a finger on 'em, so they dance around the battle pretty much unmolested........the Gith is even great against touch attacks, and flat-footed....

So, we're looking at about CR's 5-9, I need monsters or strategies that *hit*. The critters I've been using need to roll really high to lay a finger on 'em, so I want something that may reliably smack 'em around a bit, without also decimating the lower-AC'd members of the party....

........maybe I need to look into a 'reverse power attack' feat......

......any ideas?

 

[Victim]

Trip attacks start with a touch attack, so some AC goes away. If the trip succeeds, the target is effectively at -4 to AC.

Girallons. While their attack bonus is a medicore +12, they do get like 5 attacks with reach. A large number of attacks will eventually get lucky. IIRC, Destrachans, Yttrik, and Digesters can all bypass normal AC. Some of the bigger elementals have good attack bonuses and lots of attacks. And DR.

 

[humble minion]

One nasty trick - gibberlings.

Sure, they've only got a +1 or +2 attack. But the great thing is that they can fit three in a 5ft square. And since they're only CR 1/3, you can use dozens and dozens of the things with a clear conscience.

Tactics: surround problem PC. If you're using a square grid you can fit 24 gibberlings in there. Of these, only about three actually attack. The rest use 'aid another' to help the attackers. Getting a total of +15 on the attack bonus should be manageable enough. Also - make them grapple. Sure you provoke an attack of opportunity, but not that many PCs take Combat Reflexes, it's a touch attack so natural armour is ignored, and as soon as even one gibberling manages to grapple your PC can say goodbye to his Dex bonus as well. Though if your PC has Whirlwind Attack things will get very ugly for the poor little gibberlings.

Other tricks - cavalry using overrun, grenade-like missiles (target the Reflex save), vrocks (vrock spores don't care what your AC is, and heroism plus five natural attacks means that you're bound to hit sometime), bad guys using area dispels to get rid of AC buffs, combats set up so the PCs have to win FAST and therefore can't afford to use Expertise, magic missiles, the true strike and scorching ray/enervation combination.

 

[Nifft]

Ogres that grapple.

Fighter/Magi with greatswords and true strike ... and power attack

Oozes -- go ahead, flurry my corrosive butt!

Six goblins with longspears and two ogres with greatclubs, each goblin uses the "aid another" action to grant a cumulative +12 to the attack roll of one ogre (or +6 to each ogre).

8th level sorcerers with greater invisibility and scorching ray -- "What's your flat-footed touch AC?"

Incorporeal buggers -- shadows are great at that level.

-- N

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I've got a few AC monkeys IMC, and I'm looking for ways to bring them down off of their high horses. The worst offenders are:

1) Githzerai Monk + Feral Template (from Savage Species)......+6 natural armor, +4 'mage armor', obscene dex, and a great Wisdom....his AC is regularly in the '30's. Also has Combat Expertise, so.....

2) Feral (from Savage Species) Vanara (from OA) Druid.......not nearly as bad as the above, but still bad enough....and Combat Expertise....

I need ways to make them respect monsters again......while neither of them really ever do damage (the monk's "flurry of whiffs," and the DR mean he doesn't get much), I can't lay a finger on 'em, so they dance around the battle pretty much unmolested........the Gith is even great against touch attacks, and flat-footed....

So, we're looking at about CR's 5-9, I need monsters or strategies that *hit*. The critters I've been using need to roll really high to lay a finger on 'em, so I want something that may reliably smack 'em around a bit, without also decimating the lower-AC'd members of the party....

........maybe I need to look into a 'reverse power attack' feat......

......any ideas?

Usually Dragons are suited for this sort of thing. They are an equal danger to everyone, and have a great Armor Class (except against touch) and especially a high attack bonus. (Dragon HD are the Powergamers wet dream: Full BAB, d12 HD, 6+INT Skillpoints. And on top of this, most dragons also get high physical and mental ability scores and spellike, supernatural and extraordinary abilities)

But maybe spells might also work. A Sorceror level 6 could launch some Ice Storms against them (no Reflex Saving Throw. Only 5d6 points of damage, but nasty enough). If the touch AC isn`t too high (but I guess it will be at least against the Monk, Scorching Rays and Melfs Acid Arrows might also work.

Grappling: Except for the initial touch attack, the AC is completely irrelevant. May big monsters have Improved Grab, or use a Barbarian/Fighter with Improved Grapple (an additional +4 to the Grapple Checks, no Attack of Oppertunity).
Creatures nasty during Grapple:
Dragons (Snatch Attack) (varying CRs)
Behir (CR 8)
Dinosaurs (Tyrannosaurus, CR 8, high Attack Bonus)
Dire Animal (Lion CR5 , Bear CR7, Tiger CR8, Shark CR8)
Gray Render (CR 8)
Tendricolous (CR 6)
and many more...

Tripping can cripple their mobility. Wolfs are good at this, as are equal leveled Barbarians or Fighters with Improved Trip. (Add Combat Reflexes and optionally a reach weapon, and they might be in trouble)

If you want to make it a bit more nasty for them: Use creatures with abilities like Flame Aura - every hit deals damage. (The mentioned sorceror above could do this... It would also protect him against grapples...)

A Creauture with an obscene amount of attacks can also help - a 20 does always hit...

 

[DragonOfIntellect]

I would suggest using grappling, touch attacks, and other specialty tactics to take down such characters. Remember, though, that they are already paying a penalty, as focusing that heavily on AC renders them less effective in combat, as you said yourself. It's more of a detriment to the party in most cases, but against creatures whose primary attacks are not based on AC, like Beholders or spellcasters, it really hurts them.

Also, any reasonably intelligent foes are likely to switch targets to the more vulnerable, and harder hitting members of the party. Once they're down, they can focus their efforts on taking down the untouchable two.

 

[FireLance]

Don't forget swarms. They do damage to creatures in their square regardless of AC. Sic a Hellwasp Swarm (CR 8) on them (Damage: 3d6 plus poison) .

Another good creature against high-AC characters is an Elder Arrowhawk (CR 8). Electricity Ray +19 ranged touch (2d8 electricity) .

Have fun !

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Why do you need to take them down a peg?
They've designed characters that are good at one thing (avoiding damage) and bad at another (inflicting damage). That involves making sacrifices. So what's the problem? Shouldn't players be allowed to enjoy their characters being good at something?
I guess all I'm saying is that if you toss in a couple of encounters specifically designed to hurt them, you should not make that the standard. In most fights, they should still be able to enjoy their relative untouchability because that's what they've worked to get good at.
A dragon, as said, is a great opponent against nearly anything. And it's fun for the PCs to fight the iconic monster of the game, even a CR5 one.

 

[James Heard]

Just use a ton of low CR monsters. I don't know how many goblins fit into an EL 5-6, but I'm guessing it's an awful lot of them. Give them short bows, notch down their numbers and give them cover. Trust me, with a 1 in 20 chance to hit anything numbers beat AC just about every time. The usual response from my players to react to this is something like Obscuring Mist and charge into melee, an obstacle or trap somewhere inbetween means that players are going to make a choice to either blow off room sweeper spells getting rid of low damage goblins or take the time under fire to take them out one by one. Space them out in clusters of 3 or 4 at extreme range too in the out of doors so that just one spell can't take them all out at once.

Also, make them go wading through water and lowering their dex bonuses. Fill the area with flammable and movement constricting webs (to hide the spider swarms and ninja drow I guess). Bestow Curse works pretty good for tagging specific stats occassionally, and you could stage a fight on a ledge where movement means balance checks to avoid the ground falling away - including the dex bonus to AC.

If you go with the massive goblin horde you might want to up the ante by making all the arrows tipped with poison too, which would naturally lead to looking for the Goblin Rogue/Assassin that set things up for them later on. Don't forget other alchemical items, like tanglefoot bags and thunderstones. Those can make it harder to cast the spells that would increase the character's AC and can immobilize the party so that the goblin arrow volleys last a little longer.

 

[WizarDru]

Is the issue one of cockiness? That is to say, are they not concerned by their lack of damage-dealing ability because they feel invulnerable? I wouldn't punish a player for optimizing his character, unless they've done so to the detriment of the game and the enjoyment of others.

Some good strategies have already been offered, and summarized as such:

1) Special combat actions. AC is a wonderful thing...but lots of small creatures can use the Aid Another feat to increase a creature's AC or lower another's. Use this carefully. If you have a creature like an ogre, with low AC but high damage (the classic 'egg with a hammer'), give him some orc minions who harry his attackers to raise his AC. Lower the PCs AC with Attacks to Aid. Remember that a charge gives +2 to your attack (but lose -2 to AC for the next round).

2) Avoid the AC entirely. Creatures like the Hellwasp Swarm listed above are a good start. Creatures that perform touch attacks or grapples are excellent, too. Consider the humble Behir, a grappling freight train that breathes lightning and and can swallow the opponent whole. With a grapple of +25, he's having lunch. Lots of creatures have touch-attack powers. Some, like the good ol' Destrachan, use powers that can seriously inconvienence an unprepared party.

3) Conditions and Effects. Lots of spells and powers can mess with high ACs. Consider how something like being Entangled or knocked prone affects AC. Consider Touch of Fatigue, a simple cantrip, or it's big brother Ray of Exhaustion. Putting them to sleep via Deep Slumber is an awfully mean way of lowering their AC. Get creative. And, of course, Crushing Despair, Ray of Enfeeblement or Enervation are good ways to lower all of their stats, making them more vulnerable.

4)Use odd Environments and battlegrounds. Having the PCs fight under water, on shaky ground or in a windstorm will radically change things like AC, and keep them uncertain.

High AC is a nice thing to have. But they had best remember that it will only take you so far, particularly at high levels, where your AC starts to plateau, but your enemies BAB doesn't slow down. Don't take away their abilities or invalidate them, though. They worked to make their characters what they are, and deserve to enjoy their powers. Just make sure they understand that they aren't invulnerable.