D&D 5E Strength, Intelligence and Charisma saving throws

[GX.Sigma]

Is it worth having 6 saving throws instead of 3 for these things?

I don't think your assumption makes sense. Having 3 saves is more complicated than having 6 saves. With the 6 save system, you just have to explain what ability scores are, and what saving throws are. With the 3 save system, you have to add three mechanical pieces with their own rules and math.

 

[Vicar In A Tutu]

I don't think your assumption makes sense. Having 3 saves is more complicated than having 6 saves. With the 6 save system, you just have to explain what ability scores are, and what saving throws are. With the 3 save system, you have to add three mechanical pieces with their own rules and math.

I'm not saying that the game should reintroduce Fortitude, Reflex and Will saving throws. I'm saying that they maybe should have just stuck with Dex, Con and Wis saving throws (ideally they should have spread the effects out more so that Cha, Int and Str saving throws would have been more relevant). The way it's now is just confusing (pun intended): The spell Confusion requires a Wisdom save, but the Umber Hulk's Confusion gaze requires a Charisma save.

 

[Li Shenron]

May not be complete. Thought about merging this with Ari's spell spreadsheet.

Wind Wall: Strength (damage)
Web: Dex to avoid, but Strength check to break free
Tsunami: Strength (damage)
Telekinesis: contested by Strength check
Symbol (hoplessness): Charisma
Symbol (insanity): Intelligence
Seeming: Charisma (no, don’t disguise me!)
Project Image: detected with Intelligence check
Programmed Illusion: detected with Intelligence check
Planar Binding: Charisma
Phantasmal Force: Intelligence
Minor Illusion: detected with Intelligence check
Maze: Intelligence check to get out
Major Image: detected with Intelligence check
Magic Jar Charisma
Magic Circle: hedged critter makes Charisma save to enter by supernatural means
Gust of Wind: Strength (unwilling movement)
Glyph of Warding: Intelligence check to find before triggering
Forcecage: Charisma to leave by supernatural means
Feeblemind: Intelligence
Ensnaring Strike: Strength
Disguise Self: Intelligence check to penetrate disguise
Contact Other Plane: caster makes Intelligence save (hearing voices in head damage)
Calm Emotions: Charisma
Bigby’s Hand: some aspects resisted with Strength checks
Banshment: Charisma
Bane: Charisma
Arms of Hadar: Strength

You really need to check which ones require a saving throw VS a generic ability check VS a skill-augmented ability check.

Because the issue at stakes is that you never get to apply your proficiency bonus to generic ability checks. This means everyone will be non-proficient when attempting those checks, and an ability requiring a generic ability check is then a notch more powerful.

Someone on this board once suggested:

Intelligence: illusions
Wisdom: charms
Charisma: compulisions

I definitely second Int for illusions and Cha for compulsions. I am ok with Wis covering everything else mental, e.g. willpower, awareness etc.

For Str I suggested saves vs forced movement (which is being used in fact in 5e) and paralyzing effects.

 

[evilives]

You really need to check which ones require a saving throw VS a generic ability check VS a skill-augmented ability check.

Yeah, I should have made that clearer.

In the list I compiled, anything that lists a stat by itself is a save. So Feeblemind: Intelligence means that Feeblemind forces an Intelligence save. Some of the entries have what you are avoiding with a save. Some don't.

Anything that uses a check says "Spell Name: blankety-blank check."

Many entries that say "Intelligence check" should be read as "Intelligence (investigation)" check. Maze is one exception; you escape with a vanilla Intelligence check. There may be others.

Off hand, I think the Strength checks are all vanilla.

 

[Li Shenron]

Something that plagues the concept of Str/Int/Cha saving throws is that these 3 abilities work mostly with an active roll: they typically represent taking a physical action, mental action, and exerting your force of personality.

Constitution and Wisdom work a lot more passively, and are more naturally suited to saving throws and reactions than actions (in fact, Constitution has no skills, and Wisdom skills work mostly reactively).

Dexterity is still about physical actions, but it gets a lot of saving throws, because dodging stuff works reactively.

So this is why IMHO when a new spell or monster's ability is designed, the designers ask themselves "how is the target going to try avoid/lessen/free herself from the effect?" and most of the time the natural suggestion is dodge (Dex), physically resist (Con) or mentally resist (Wis).

But I also believe that there is room for Str/Int/Cha saving throw, as long as the designer focus more on the fact that you have to (re)act fast or the effect will overtake you.

So all paralysis effects including petrification would work perfectly with a Strength saving throw: it's still a sort of action you have to take (which is kind of forcing your body to move, against the external force trying to make you stand still) but you have to take it immediately or you'll be turned to stone.

Charisma isn't even always that distinct from Wisdom. "Force of personality" vs "force of will" are conceptually a bit overlapping. Maybe the first is typically directed towards other people, while the second is typically directed towards yourself. But still, you could say you resist a compulsion with Wisdom ("I... will... do what I want!") but just as well you can say it works with Charisma ("You... won't... make me do what you want!").

Intelligence is the trickiest one, especially because often using intelligence is a long process. It's a bit harder to find good examples of fast, reactive uses of intelligence in the context of spells effects. Recalling information, make some quick calculation or reasoning yes, but still there aren't probably many spells effects traditionally in D&D. However, given that Illusions are given the chance to be identified in a matter of seconds with an Int(Investigation) check, they could have been done just as well with an Int saving throw.

 

[Erechel]

An analysis of the Monster Manual and the Volo's Guide to Monsters shows how common they are. You'll be surprised to notice that dexterity isn't, by far, the most common save the Characters must make. They actually are pretty scarce, as they are packed in highest levels. Legendary Dragons, alone, concentrate more than half Dex saves.