Stronghold Builder's Guidebook Prices

[Hardhead]

In my campaign, I have a group of adventurers who decided to build themselves a fort from the crubmling ruins of an old monastery.

I used the rules presented in the PHB/DMG for profession to come up with their complete cost.

I have a real life history of consturction (I'm a welder--hence the name Sparxmith, and I've worked on constructing/demolition of oil rigs in the Gulf of Mexico), so I had a fair idea of how long construction takes.

The characters hired a team of dwarven stonesmiths and laborers to construct an repair the walls. They negotiated a rate of 165 gp/wk (15 gp for the foreman, 10 gp/wk for the workers x 10 workers), and I figured that it would take 4d10+4 weeks (appx. 6 mos.) to complete. I then figured material costs as being equal to 150% of the labor costs.

This gave me a base price of 4290 gp for labor and 6435 for materials, and a total of 10725 gp for walls.

I then figured that carpenters would be building the interior of the fort while the dwarves built the exterior walls. I rolled 1d4+3 days per room, and the characters negotiated a rate of 2 gp/wk for carpenter and helper team. I also assumed 150% material rate. Given that the characters were having an inn (7 rooms), a shrine (2 rooms), a blacksmith shop (3 rooms), and a personal residence for the group to share (8 rooms). This was a total of 100 gp for materials and labor.

Totaling in furnishings, staffing, hire guards, etc., the characters spent 12,500 gp for a rebuilt monastery.

How do these numbers match up? I dunno, I haven't seen the book in question, but these numbers seemed right to me for 4 6th level characters.

OK, I'm going to assume that since carpenters are building the interior, it is made *entirely* of wood. No stone whatsoever except for the guard walls. I'm also going to assume you have the "basic" version of all of these. Basic means, essentially, that it sucks. For example, a basic bedroom's description is, in part:

The furnishings in each room are rough, including a straw bed on a low frame, a single chest of drawers, and a mirror hanging on one wall. The bedclosthes are made of rough cotton, wool, or even burlap, and the blanket is often a patchwork quilt made of whatever was available. Each room also has a rough bench sitting in front of a small table..

I'm going to guess on rooms. Let me know what I get wrong, and I'll fix the prices.

Inn (seven rooms). I'm going to assume a Tavern, a Kitchen, and two bedrooms (the bedroom component is actually two small bedrooms, the bedroom suite is one large bedroom), along with one stable.

Shrine (two rooms): I'll use a chapel and a office.

Blacksmith (three rooms): I'm going to assume a Shop, a Smithy, and a bedroom (guessing the smith lives there).

Residence (eight rooms). I'm going to assume a party of four that doesn't double up on rooms. That's four bedroom suites, a kitchen, a common area, an office for one, and Servant's Quarters (since you mentioned you had some).


OK. The Inn is going to cost: Tavern (900), Kitchen (2,000) Bedrooms (700 each), and Stable (500): Cost for components: 4,800. These components total four Stronghold Spaces (hereafter SS). Walls cost (SSxGP cost of material) so walls will be costing you another four grand, assuming it's all-wooden. Total: 8,800

The Shrine will cost: Chapel (1,000) Office (200). It will total 1.5 SS. Wall cost will be 1,500 if wooden. Total: 2,700

The Blacksmith will cost: Shop (400) Smithy (500), Bedroom (700). It will total 3 SS, so walls will cost 3,000 if wooden. Total: 4,600

The Residence will cost: Bedroom Suites (800 gp apiece), Kitchen (2,000), Common Area (500), Office (500), Servant's Quarters (400). It will total 7.5 SS, and will therefore cost 7,500 for walls, assuming it's all wooden. Total: 14,100.

These bedrooms are OK, as far as niceness goes. If they just used regular bedrooms (as described above), they could reduce the cost to 10,300.

These prices don't include the help.

So far, our grand total is 30,200. Now, let's start talking about the walls.

I'm going to assume four guard towers, one at each corner. They're actually a really good deal compared to, say, an inn. A single 30-foot tower of hewn stone complete with a guard post on top costs a mere 800 gp (plus 36 per month for staffing with guards). Since the dwarves were rebuilding the wall, let's half all building prices for the wall. That's only 1,600 for the towers.

I'm going to assume that the outer walls are basic masonry. Not superior masonry or reinforced masonry or hewn stone. I'm also going to assume that the walls are forty feet on a side. I was going to do twenty, but you have to fit and inn, a smithy, a nice house, and a chapel inside, so I figured it must be pretty big. I'm going to assume they're 20' tall.

Assuming all this, each 40' long side will cost 3,000. We'll half that, as we said earlier. So, total wall cost: 6,000

That brings our grand total to...


(drum roll, please)


(I said drum roll!)


(Yes, now!)


(No, drums first, then symbols! Jesus, I knew I shouldn't have settles for help with less than a +4 Preform score).

And the grand toal is... 37,800

Note that this price *doesn't* include hiring help, arming your guards, providing them for a place to sleep (these would require "armory" and "guard quarter" spaces). Nor does it include the cost of a courtyard, which I'm not sure I can get away with, but I left it out anyway. And, of course, you characters are living in the most modest of rooms. Oh, and you said it was a rebuilt monestary, but it doesn't include a practice room or anything like that. Not sure if there is still one, though. Also, it doesn't include prices for doors, locks, or shutters, but this wwould probably only raise the price by about ~100.


- Z a c h

 

[CyberSpyder]

My, people are being quite stubborn about admitting that it's overpricing strongholds...

I'll give in to all your examples. The revised cottage only has one room - 'bedrooms,' the smallest and cheapest possible by the rules of the book. Heck, it doesn't even have a door or windows or a lock - just a hole cut in the side. That brings the price down to 1700 gold.

Of course, I'm also going to be a bit more reasonable about the savings rate, and say that 10% is the most they can manage over the long term. Given that the price if he were eating trail rations would be 3.5 gold per week out of 2 gold earned, I'd say I'm even being a bit generous with that.

Saving 10% of 2 gold earned per week, and assuming that he can get free labor from himself and friends, it would take 114 years of working. Over a century of saving money to be able to afford a one-room cottage without doors that he built with his own hands. Do you really think that's reasonable?

 

[Hardhead]

My thought is, this is Dungeons and Dragons. Why shouldn't the PCs ever be able to afford a Floating Tower? And yes, I know the Dwarven Redbout is generally constructed by a community, but why not a group of 14th or 15th level characters? You'd think that by then, they certainly have the money. But they're just priced so high...

 

[silentspace]

My, people are being quite stubborn about admitting that it's overpricing strongholds...

Heh, I didn't realize this was an argument, only a discussion

On player strongholds - the game is mostly about adventuring, so the prices sort of make sense. If I were you, I'd look more into sacking a fortress than building a new one. If you put all your money into building one, it's probably gonna get sacked anyway

As to the whole thing about serfs, I'm not quite sure what the problem is. If the house was built out of sod, and straw, the materials are free. You don't need to build the house out of finished wood planks. Also, in the feudal systems, the serfs did not own their land or their houses. They were owned by the feudal lords. That is one reason why people came to America - the opportunity to own their own lands and homes. Also, unlike modern America, every generation did not live in new homes. Homes were passed down from generation to generation (although not owned by the serfs, but owned by their feudal masters). But in the end, it's your world, you can make it however you like!

 

[silentspace]

Back to the original post though... I would say a good rule of thumb would be if you're powerful enough to seize something, it shouldn't be completely out of reach to build it yourself. In campaigns I'm in, we can't seize a small fort at 5th level, a basic castle at 10th level, a castle with all the knobs at 15th level, and a floating fortress at 17th-20th level. Each of those fortress types would be about 5 levels higher. But if you can do it in your campaign (seize, not just infiltrate) then I agree, prices should be lower in your campaign.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I wasn't aware that commoners and serfs ever owned their homes. Historically, they always paid obscene rents to the local lord, on top of already burdainsome taxes. They spent most, if not all, of their lives in debt, which could legally be transferred to their children.

 

[silentspace]

While you're seizing someone else's fortress, you might as well get yourself made into a duke or something! The feudal system was based on military power, not political representation, so if you had the power, you could become a feudal lord! No elections, legislative or judicial branches, etc in your way! Then you can collect rent/tribute/taxes from the serfs for the right to farm your land and live on your property!

 

[Hardhead]

I think a major point that some people maybe aren't thinking about is that, unlike historic middle-ages, D&D worlds generally have a decent sized middle-class. At least, this is true of Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk (depending on region, of course, but it's generally true).

Back to the original post though... I would say a good rule of thumb would be if you're powerful enough to seize something, it shouldn't be completely out of reach to build it yourself. In campaigns I'm in, we can't seize a small fort at 5th level, a basic castle at 10th level, a castle with all the knobs at 15th level, and a floating fortress at 17th-20th level. Each of those fortress types would be about 5 levels higher. But if you can do it in your campaign (seize, not just infiltrate) then I agree, prices should be lower in your campaign.

Good point. Let's compare this to what you can size in the Adventure Path modules, since those are supposed to by typical D&D.

At 5th level, the characters could take over the Stone's Tooth in Forge of Fury. A very nice "castle" that would require some renovation, sure, but certainly way better than what they could afford. Certainly, it's better than the small fort or large house I asked for at this level!

Heart of Nightfang Spire: For 10th level. If they players take this place over, they'd get a very nice castle. Big, lots of rooms. Defensible. About what I asked for at this level.

Lord of the Iron Fortress: For 15th level characters. Get this one, and you get a large, pure iron fortress generally protected from scrying by wonderous architecture. It even has powerful golems that serve whoever is master of the forge (including PCs if they take over). Nice! Even more than the "castle with all the knobs on" that I asked for.

Bastion of Broken Souls: Never played it, unfortunately. From the name, it sounds like a pretty high-fantasy place, though.

So, if you want to use the adventure path modules as a benchmark, I'd say that they generally support my assumptions about what to expect when.

Also, if you don't face Floating Castles at 20th level, when *would* you face them? I guess if you were playing epic levels, maybe? But most campaigns don't go that far (for good reason, I think).


EDIT:

As to the whole thing about serfs, I'm not quite sure what the problem is. If the house was built out of sod, and straw, the materials are free.

Not according to the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. Packed earth still costs 250 gp per SS (part of the price is hiring workers, ect, so that's why it has a price, even if it is kinda steep).

A house that was one bedroom SS made of packed earth would still cost 950 gp.

 

[silentspace]

Packed earth still costs 250 gp per SS (part of the price is hiring workers, ect, so that's why it has a price, even if it is kinda steep).

A house that was one bedroom SS made of packed earth would still cost 950 gp.

What? That book is a piece of garbage!

 

[sparxmith]

Not according to the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. Packed earth still costs 250 gp per SS (part of the price is hiring workers, ect, so that's why it has a price, even if it is kinda steep).

A house that was one bedroom SS made of packed earth would still cost 950 gp.

This is a completely ludicrous price. I'll grant that the costs I presented earlier may have been low, but the thought of a commoner--not a serf, mind you--would have 950 gp to spend on a SOD house is ridiculous.

Assume, for example, the Forgotten Realms. If a freeman of Waterdeep wanted to travel to the Western Heartlands and establish a farm in a free area, his SOD house, that is infinitely inferior to the home he enjoyed in Waterdeep, is going to cost him 3 years worth of artisan's wages? Absolutely not. No reason to. He would do most of the work himself and what he could not do would cost him, on average, 1gp per day.

I think that the sourcebook's prices for materials are remarkably overpriced. Sod is a relatively common material, especially in an area like the Western Heartlands, so I have a hard time justifying the 950 gp price for sod. Can't happen. The economy simply wouldn't support it.