Struggling with spell lists!

[Morrus]

The aspect of O.L.D. I'm struggling most with is the magic system. Right now my issue is assignation of spell lists to caster traditions. What's there right now doesn't quite feel elegant enough, and feels a little arbitrary.

Which sucks, because it's the only thing holding back a new playtest release of what I'm currently calling "Book I: Characters".

For the moment, I do not plan to add new magical traditions. I want to keep it simple until I'm 100% happy with how magic is working. So we'll be sticking with the mage, cleric, firemage, diabolist, necromancer, druid, and inquisitor.

I'm also still torn between the EoM system as the primary system (I know Primitive Screwhead would be very disappointed to see that change) or the simpler spell path system that monsters use. Though it should be noted that spells in that spell path system are all created with the EoM rules. One idea is to make EoM an appendix describing how to design new spell paths. That leaves it there as the primary spell design system, but it does take away the spontaneous design aspect of it - that said, how often do people actually spontaneously design a spell on the fly in the middle of combat? It would be interesting to hear how EoM gets used. Is it too complex? (Again, I know a couple of groups out there don't think so, and love it).

So, that aside. The traditions at present offer MAGIC increases, and the number of spell lists you can have is limited by your LOGIC attribute. Technically, anybody can use magic is they have a MAGIC attribute of 1 or more, even mere farmhands. The mage and cleric increase MAGIC by 1 point per grade; the other more focused ones increase it by 2 points per grade.

So back to the initial question. How to assign spell lists? How many to give a starting character? And which ones? This I keep going back and forth on and I'm still not settled. That's why I'm sticking with a very small number of caster traditions right now!

Should each tradition simply list exactly which spell lists are available to it? Perhaps all actions are available to all traditions, but the elements are limited? Or perhaps all elements are available, but actions are limited? Simply listing specific lists with each tradition is more specific, but it doesn't feel elegant to me.

How many traditions should a starting character have? Has anybody any thoughts on that? One per grade? One per tradition?

Anyhow. This being something I need to finalize really soon so I can start putting out new O.L.D. playtest material, I'm hoping to get some good feedback on the subject.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Yes, I would be dissapointed.. that being said, EoM:R has a pretty big learning curve for both DM and players. I think the idea of each spell list come with some 'sample' spells from MP 0 to MP10 that could be used right out of the gate would lower that barrier. Then have the full EoM rules for DMs and experienced players to tinker with as an expansion/appendix.

You asked about spontaneous casting... it doesn't happen often due to the complexity of the system. Let me revise that. The character might be casting spontaneously but the player would have spent some time creating the spell and having it vetted by the DM in the first place. The higher level the mage, the more complex and interesting the spells get.

As to the Magic stat, I think that the current increase by traditions makes sense. I am not sure about the MP = Magic *3. In EoM:R Lycium Arcana the 'Global Area of Effect' is listed as 40 MP. That means that the three casters in my group could spend a day or two in a ritual and burn the entire world down... not so good. As it is the Firemage tends to toss max MP spells out in combat which tends to kill everything. 24+ points of Fire damage tends to do that!

Back on track. I am a fan of the Domain/Sphere/Specialization concept. So add a two layers between the traditions and the full EoM rules:

Tradition > Domain/Sphere/Specialization > Spell Lists > Simplified Spell Path > Full EoM

"How many traditions should a starting character have? Has anybody any thoughts on that? One per grade? One per tradition? "
Did you mean "How many spell lists"?
3 for Rank I generalist traditions, 2 for Rank I specialist {fire mage, druid}, and 1 for Rank II and above


I bet it wouldn't be hard to get a bunch of fan generated spheres with Spell Paths, even with some intermixed paths.


And going back: The tradition should be the 'how do they do magic' aspect. Classic mage, Hedge Wizard, Rune-Caster, Wand-Expert, Spirit Shaman, etc. The Spheres are more the 'what magic do they do'.. the evoker, the summoner, the diviner, the elementalist, the Psion, the Ki Warrior... etc.

Specialist traditions like the Fire Mage have less options as far as the Sphere, but more power within that Sphere.


By the way. Can you update the 'Fire Mage' to be a generic 'Elemental Specialist Mage' that can use any of the primary elements {Fire, Earth, Water, Air} as their key element?

 

[RisTigger]

Looking at the spell lists for the various traditions, it does feel a bit limiting when you've got a huge open system to play with and your choices are stifled (if I'm reading it right). I first thought the spell system was huge and stifling, but reading through it again I see how free and unique it is. However, I think a lot of concepts in the old May document are ill defined and need tweaking. Specifically, what does it mean when it says casting a spell takes 1 minute.

This is just a quick idea, but would it be better if the traditions had an easier time casting certain spells. A Pyromancer can cast a spell with the Fire Element as if it were a signature spell or they can cast it using less MP. Or maybe they're just better at it and deal more damage or gain a benefit without having to pay the MP cost to use the spell.

Or maybe, instead of a spell list, it's just a list of automatic Signature Spells that don't count towards your total limit because you were carefully taught them by a master. At first you gain 1 Signature spell from the tradition that's simple but effective. Then as you rank up in the tradition you get access to some really powerful ones. It keeps the spell list idea but gives it more freedom.

Well, another suggestion is that making new spells outside your tradition is harder. You have to study and invoke strange energies.

These are just ideas that I thought of on the fly.

 

[Morrus]

As to the Magic stat, I think that the current increase by traditions makes sense. I am not sure about the MP = Magic *3. In EoM:R Lycium Arcana the 'Global Area of Effect' is listed as 40 MP. That means that the three casters in my group could spend a day or two in a ritual and burn the entire world down... not so good.

EoM:R Lycium Arcana is not O.L.D.

 

[Morrus]

Well, another suggestion is that making new spells outside your tradition is harder.

Well, the very short version of my admittedly lengthy post is "How do I decide which spell lists go with which tradition?"

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Yes I know, but the MP cost of duration and scale were maintained in the last playtest document.

So, on the long drive home in nasty traffic, some more thoughts on Spheres... and this partially because I am reading the Lightbringer series. Colors of magic!

We have Black Magic {undead, scary icky stuff}, White Magic {healing, healthy nice warm-glowy stuff}, Red {blaster/evoke/war}, Green {nature and nurture}

Much better ideas on magic color here
{edit: parsed the above link into the elements}

Colours of Magic

RED: Maintaining health, strength, physical energy, sex, passion, courage, protection. Widely used in defensive magic. The color of the element of Fire. Red is associated with blood (and thus, life and death), birth, volcanoes, and intense emotions. The Zuni of America linked this color with the South. Throughout Polynesia, red was sacred color associated with both the deities and with the highest social classes.
Fire, Force, Mechanical

PINK: Love, friendship, compassion, relaxation. Pink is symbolic of gentle emotions and of emotional unions. It's less intense then red.
Charm, Sound, Person

ORANGE: General attraction, energy. Orange is a lesser aspect of red.
Lava, Lightning, Metal

YELLOW: Intellect, confidence, divination, communication, eloquence, travel, movement. Yellow is the color of the element of Air. It symbolizes the sun, grain, and the power of thought. To the Zuni, it symbolized the North. In polynesia, yellow was a color of royalty and divinity.
Air, Mist, Space

GREEN: Money, prosperity, employment, fertility, healing, growth. Green is the color of the element of the Earth and symbolizes our planet's fertility (it's the color of chlorophyll) as well as life itself.
Nature, Fey, Time

BLUE: Healing, peace, psychism, patience, happiness. Blue is the color of the element of Water. Symbolic of the ocean, sleep, twilight, and the sky. The Zuni employed this color to represent the west.
Water, Ice, Crystal

PURPLE: Power, healing severe disease, spirituality, meditation, religion. Purple was once a European symbol of royalty; today it symbolizes the divine.
Time, Space, Void

WHITE: Protection, purification, all purposes. Symbolic of the Moon, freshness, snow, cold, and potential. Because white contains all colors, it can be utilized for every magical purpose. White symbolized the East to the Zuni.
Light, Good, Abjuration

BLACK: Banishing negativity, absorbing negativity. Symbolizes outer space and the universe. Black is the absence of colors. In some cultures, black represented fertility (as in quite fruitful black earth); in others, wisdom. In our culture it has been curiously linked with evil, due to religious associations. It is not an evil color.
Shadow, Undead, Hex

BROWN: Animals. Used for spells involving animals, usually in combination with other colors. Brown represents soil and, to a lesser degree, fertility of the Earth.
Earth, Beast, Plant

???
Acid, Ooze, Evil

 

[Morrus]

Yes I know, but the MP cost of duration and scale were maintained in the last playtest document.

So, on the long drive home in nasty traffic, some more thoughts on Spheres... and this partially because I am reading the Lightbringer series. Colors of magic!

We have Black Magic {undead, scary icky stuff}, White Magic {healing, healthy nice warm-glowy stuff}, Red {blaster/evoke/war}, Green {nature and nurture}

Much better ideas on magic color here

Magic colours ain't gonna happen, I'm afraid. That's one aesthetic I've seen before, but really don't like! It feels too artificial and forced to me.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

So... not to the Red Mage vs Blue Mage eh?

{edit}

and anyway you slice it, the division will be somewhat artificial and haphazard... but at the end if you can put a second sentence together for your character...:

Bob is a Sly Hedge-Mage who like gambling and long walks in the woods.
He practices [sympathetic] spell casting and is adept at [Blue] magic.

replace [sympathetic] and [blue] with whatever qualifiers fit into the setting.

 

[SKid4]

How close do you want this to mirror D&D?

The magical traditions are definitely reminiscent of the classic D&D design: spells + thematic features. However, I get the feeling that this gives the magical traditions twice as many abilities as the non-magical traditions (thematic features only, no spells).

Secondly, I like the idea of generalists having greater versality (e.g., more spell lists) with lower power, and specialists having lower versality (e.g., signature spells only) and greater power. However, it also makes sense to me that a specialist could tweak specific spells more easily due to the character’s level of focus/mastery. This makes me think of D&D 5e’s sorcerer, which gets metamagic as a class feature.

Additionally, I’m leaning toward the idea that most traditions provide signature spells, not entire spell lists (like with monsters). This would bring the variable options of magical traditions in line with the static options of non-magical traditions (e.g., you get a good suit of armor vs. +2 defense, OR 2 soak, OR -2 defense, OR -2 soak, OR all other abjure enhancements—seriously?). Let’s call this the “ease of play” point.

How does the following sound?

The mage has the greatest level of generalization and grants signature spells, per grade, chosen from any spell list (no thematic features). Other magical traditions, such as cleric and druid, are more specialized and provide both specific signature spells and thematic features, but not in the same grade. The remaining traditions are extremely focused and only have thematic features (e.g., the firemage requires knowledge of at least one fire spell and provides additional fire-themed abilities).

 

[RisTigger]

What about if you left it up to the player? The characters background helps them shape what kind of spell list they learn.

They come from a remote monastery and are taught by a half blind old wizard who was great at Ice spells. Because of the cold weather he taught you how to abjure the cold, evoke fire and move ice around to easily travel around the mountain.

Or if they're a druid from a particularly violent clan (The one from Light Fantastic was the first one that came to mind), they learn the powers to invoke natures wrath or summon powerful beasts, but those from a more peaceful one learn mostly healing spells or defensive spells.

The player makes a beginners spell list at tradition 1 and gets more spells the higher they go. It could be a thing the player and GM work on together.

Again, just shooting off ideas that come to my head.